(July 30, 2014 at 1:16 pm)orangebox21 Wrote: Why bias a potential answer to begin the question?

Because the notion is stupid? It wasn't a sacrifice.

(July 30, 2014 at 1:16 pm)orangebox21 Wrote: By the very nature of what atonement is.

But why atonement? Why not forgiveness? You know, like Jesus talked about repeatedly?

(July 30, 2014 at 1:16 pm)orangebox21 Wrote: From His nature. God is just. To simply overlook wrongdoing would be unjust. God cannot deny His nature.

Again, why not forgiveness? Jesus tells us to forgive even though it's not in his nature to do so? What's with the notion of Christ-like behavior, then?

(July 30, 2014 at 1:16 pm)orangebox21 Wrote: A misrepresentation of the definition of omnipotence. Omnipotence excludes God doing things contrary to His character and nature (ex. God cannot lie, doesn't mean He isn't omnipotent).

No, it's not a misrepresentation. What you're saying is would not. Cannot is a limitation. You're just redefining the word ad hoc to keep God omnipotent.

(July 30, 2014 at 1:16 pm)orangebox21 Wrote: How would you go about proving that 'the whole charade was unnecessary and overly theatric'?

Because that part of my post was in the part that considered that God chose to do something. He could have opted for forgiveness, yet he didn't. He chose "unnecessary (and temporary!) blood sacrifice of X to pay for Y" as opposed to "forgive Y". Sounds both unnecessary and theatrical.

(July 30, 2014 at 1:16 pm)orangebox21 Wrote: Not true at all. Consider what must occur for a being to be both just and merciful and the same time.

Is your god great, or not? People handle justice and mercy inside the confinements of their environment. An omnipotent being suffers no such limitations. It does whatever it wants, by definition.

(July 30, 2014 at 3:28 pm)FatAndFaithless Wrote: Yes, that is what it really comes down to. Your religion tells you that you're fundamentally ill, flawed in some way, and then provides the 'cure', if you just follow this God's rules.

No thanks.

Do you disagree that people are fundamentally flawed, or do you just reject the cure?

@Alpha male
-Do you disagree that people are fundamentally flawed, or do you just reject the cure?
Pardon me, but we yet have to see the effects of this "cure".

(July 30, 2014 at 2:01 pm)alpha male Wrote: Are you able to simply just...forgive anyone in any circumstance?

Am I an omnipotent god? Is your god omnipotent? Didn't Jesus tell us to forgive? Why doesn't God follow his own advice?

(July 30, 2014 at 2:01 pm)alpha male Wrote: If so, teach the method to your fellow atheists, cause they sure like to point out theist offenses. They're not simply just...forgiving.

Wait, are we talking about people or a (supposedly) omnipotent god? I was talking about God. It seems you're having trouble staying on topic.

(July 30, 2014 at 3:40 pm)RobbyPants Wrote: Am I an omnipotent god? Is your god omnipotent?

Depends on your definition of omnipotent. If you define it to include the ability to change one's personality at will, then I'll say no, god is not omnipotent, and your argument is nullified.

(July 30, 2014 at 3:35 pm)alpha male Wrote:

(July 30, 2014 at 3:28 pm)FatAndFaithless Wrote: Yes, that is what it really comes down to. Your religion tells you that you're fundamentally ill, flawed in some way, and then provides the 'cure', if you just follow this God's rules.

No thanks.

Do you disagree that people are fundamentally flawed, or do you just reject the cure?

What a loaded question. Of course I would never say that humans are perfect. Imperfection is sort of a definition of humanity. I don't consider these imperfections to be a "sickness" that needs a cure. Especially when the cure you're pushing characterizes so many acts and thoughts as sick or immoral when they don't have anything to do with morality (homosexuality, thought crime, etc) while at the same time endorsing things that truly are immoral (slavery, xenophobia, the list goes on). You're starting from such a distorted moral viewpoint, it's disgustingly masochistic when you consider yourself in that way, but looking at other people and projecting your delusions writ large is just hideous. Your snake oil salesman God hasn't even been proven to be possible, and until then whatever claims you want to make about what kind of punishment I deserve simply for being human are unfounded and morally reprehensible.

(July 30, 2014 at 3:34 pm)Jenny A Wrote: Forgiveness for what? Is there anything that deserves eternal torment?

Hurting YHWH's feelings, apparently. It's a real big deal to him. The apologists tell me the whole justification for free will is so he can know who really loves him. If we sufficiently hurt his feelings over the course of 80 years, we get tortured for infinity years; however, when we deal with each other, we're supposed to forgive those slights.

Weird.

---

(July 30, 2014 at 3:42 pm)alpha male Wrote: If you define it to include the ability to change one's personality at will, then I'll say no, god is not omnipotent, and your argument is nullified.

If you're saying God cannot forgive, that seems like a limitation, thus he's not omnipotent. Changing his mind or not, it's a limitation.

Also, why does God tell us to forgive yet he doesn't forgive, himself? Is he asking us to behave in a more exalted way than himself or a less exalted way?

(July 30, 2014 at 3:44 pm)FatAndFaithless Wrote: What a loaded question. Of course I would never say that humans are perfect. Imperfection is sort of a definition of humanity. I don't consider these imperfections to be a "sickness" that needs a cure. Especially when the cure you're pushing characterizes so many acts and thoughts as sick or immoral when they don't have anything to do with morality (homosexuality, thought crime, etc) while at the same time endorsing things that truly are immoral (slavery, xenophobia, the list goes on).

So in your judgment, people are guilty of many immoral things. Part of the beauty of the Bible is that it says you'll be judged by your own judgment.

Quote:You're starting from such a distorted moral viewpoint, it's disgustingly masochistic when you consider yourself in that way,

How do you know that? Maybe my judgment of myself is accurate.

Quote:but looking at other people and projecting your delusions writ large is just hideous. Your snake oil salesman God hasn't even been proven to be possible, and until then whatever claims you want to make about what kind of punishment I deserve simply for being human are unfounded and morally reprehensible.

but you don't have to live up to my judgment - just your own.

(July 30, 2014 at 3:49 pm)alpha male Wrote:

(July 30, 2014 at 3:44 pm)FatAndFaithless Wrote: What a loaded question. Of course I would never say that humans are perfect. Imperfection is sort of a definition of humanity. I don't consider these imperfections to be a "sickness" that needs a cure. Especially when the cure you're pushing characterizes so many acts and thoughts as sick or immoral when they don't have anything to do with morality (homosexuality, thought crime, etc) while at the same time endorsing things that truly are immoral (slavery, xenophobia, the list goes on).

So in your judgment, people are guilty of many immoral things. Part of the beauty of the Bible is that it says you'll be judged by your own judgment.

Quote:You're starting from such a distorted moral viewpoint, it's disgustingly masochistic when you consider yourself in that way,

How do you know that? Maybe my judgment of myself is accurate.

Quote:but looking at other people and projecting your delusions writ large is just hideous. Your snake oil salesman God hasn't even been proven to be possible, and until then whatever claims you want to make about what kind of punishment I deserve simply for being human are unfounded and morally reprehensible.

but you don't have to live up to my judgment - just your own.

Sorry, you don't get to say that I only have to live up to my own judgment when you start with the premise that everyone is inehrently sinful and deserving of punishment for being human.