(July 30, 2014 at 4:02 pm)FatAndFaithless Wrote: Sorry dude, quoting white noise from the Bible isn't making your point. I'm asking you, how can you say the only 'judgment' I need to live up to is my own (which completely lacks any concept of sin or divine punishment), while still saying that I deserve divine punishment for my sin?

Sorry, thought the answer to that is obvious - I don't think anyone lives up to their own standards.

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(July 30, 2014 at 4:04 pm)StealthySkeptic Wrote: I'd have a TON of questions- but I think most people who know this for a FACT as in it's proven by science would be idiots not to avoid eternal torment. It's like surviving North Korea- believing in Kim Jong Il is just something you have to do.

I think so too, yet that's what people here say.

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(July 30, 2014 at 4:02 pm)ShaMan Wrote: Scenario:

I claim that you're guilty of a crime, and yet I provide no evidence that the crime even occurred, let alone that you were involved in any way. BUT... I get to condemn you without any evidence.

That does not sound 'perfectly just' to me, and I'm willing to bet that it sounds ludicrous to the one being accused.

That 'god' gets to fall back on some form of cosmic 'justice' which is not to be held to scrutiny, is, to me, the perfect reason why it should be ignored entirely.

What makes you think there won't be evidence?

You're not on trial yet. You still have a chance to make a plea bargain so to speak. But if it goes to court, yes, an omniscient god will obviously be able to bring evidence.

(July 30, 2014 at 4:07 pm)alpha male Wrote:

(July 30, 2014 at 4:02 pm)FatAndFaithless Wrote: Sorry dude, quoting white noise from the Bible isn't making your point. I'm asking you, how can you say the only 'judgment' I need to live up to is my own (which completely lacks any concept of sin or divine punishment), while still saying that I deserve divine punishment for my sin?

Sorry, thought the answer to that is obvious - I don't think anyone lives up to their own standards.

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(July 30, 2014 at 4:04 pm)StealthySkeptic Wrote: I'd have a TON of questions- but I think most people who know this for a FACT as in it's proven by science would be idiots not to avoid eternal torment. It's like surviving North Korea- believing in Kim Jong Il is just something you have to do.

I think so too, yet that's what people here say.

Well obviously you can't speak for everyone. What if someone did live up to their own standards? Where does your God get off on divinely punishing us for our own personal expectations?

(July 30, 2014 at 4:07 pm)alpha male Wrote:

(July 30, 2014 at 4:02 pm)FatAndFaithless Wrote: Sorry dude, quoting white noise from the Bible isn't making your point. I'm asking you, how can you say the only 'judgment' I need to live up to is my own (which completely lacks any concept of sin or divine punishment), while still saying that I deserve divine punishment for my sin?

Sorry, thought the answer to that is obvious - I don't think anyone lives up to their own standards.

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(July 30, 2014 at 4:04 pm)StealthySkeptic Wrote: I'd have a TON of questions- but I think most people who know this for a FACT as in it's proven by science would be idiots not to avoid eternal torment. It's like surviving North Korea- believing in Kim Jong Il is just something you have to do.

I think so too, yet that's what people here say.

Well I think people challenge the idea of eternal salvation because it's idiotic right now. BUT if God came down from heaven tomorrow and were like, "Hahaha you've done been punk'd atheists" and offered us a choice of:



OR



Then no matter how much we hated God, we would talk the talk and walk the walk to try to get ourselves and our families NOT roasted alive on devil's pitchforks.

(July 30, 2014 at 4:10 pm)FatAndFaithless Wrote: Well obviously you can't speak for everyone. What if someone did live up to their own standards? Where does your God get off on divinely punishing us for our own personal expectations?

Where do people get off judging others for things they do themselves?

(July 30, 2014 at 4:17 pm)alpha male Wrote:

(July 30, 2014 at 4:10 pm)FatAndFaithless Wrote: Well obviously you can't speak for everyone. What if someone did live up to their own standards? Where does your God get off on divinely punishing us for our own personal expectations?

Where do people get off judging others for things they do themselves?

Excellent quesiton. Ask your priests. Or hell, even your God.

(July 30, 2014 at 4:11 pm)StealthySkeptic Wrote: Then no matter how much we hated God, we would talk the talk and walk the walk to try to get ourselves and our families NOT roasted alive on devil's pitchforks.

It would be out of our hands. The deal isn't "say these words and your family goes free". This is a bit like "well, we all know that crime doesn't pay...but if somebody came up to you and offered you a victims shoes at a good price - you'd buy them" Sure, some people might, there are fences in the world. Most of us aren't in the habit of fencing shit for anybody, though. Keep in mind, being a fence, relatively minor compared to the example you offered. Still, many of us seem to be able to avoid the "temptation".

If, as some claim, I'll be given a little taste of hell to help me repent, then fuck it, It's no longer me doing any repenting. I'm broken, checked out, gone - fucking space cadet, that's what happens when you torture people. Cheap victory for a god, I'd imagine.

I know this one. He ran afoul of the Roman authorities and was found guilty of incitement and sedition, the punishment for which was crucifixion.

The reason Christian apologetics don't work very well here is because whole concept is very old and very pagan.

Almost all early cultures made sacrifices of some kind: plant, animal, or human. The idea was in part to make the gods happy so they'd make you happy. The other part is the idea that you have to give up something to get something. The 700 Club's fundraising still runs on this theory. The last reason is to atone to the gods for breaking taboos. The sacrifice of pure innocent humans is part of that tradition.

The Hebrews of the Old Testament were no exception. Cain and Abel both made sacrifices and it just goes on from there. Leviticus is full of instructions for making sacrifices. Like most of the cultures in the area, people were slowly phasing out the human sacrifice part. But even after god stays Abraham's hand, there is still at least one example of human sacrifice that god appears to approve of and a few made by Ahab that god does not approve of in the OT.

Godly sacrifice as a substitute for human sacrifice was prevalent in and around Israel (Prometheus, Ra, Isis, Persephone). The gods of course are resurrected. These myths often had to with the change of seasons. But in many cases they morphed into sacrifices by which a god shares the blessing of eternal life with mortal man. Often this sharing is in opposition to the wishes of the other gods.

The Jesus myth is not so very different. God sacrifices himself to bring us the secret of eternal life. The necessity of the sacrifice is never really very clear. Christian apologetics are just an attempt to explain what appeared to have made sense to bronze age cultures but no longer makes sense to modern man.

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(July 30, 2014 at 3:27 pm)alpha male Wrote: BINGO! That's what it really comes down to. Even when being offered free forgiveness, and blessing on top of it, people don't want to admit that they're guilty.

That has nothing to do with whether the method of offering forgiveness makes any sense.

In keeping with notion of why fictional characters do anything I have never accepted that Luke turned off his computer while bombing the Death Star.

(July 30, 2014 at 5:01 pm)Minimalist Wrote: In keeping with notion of why fictional characters do anything I have never accepted that Luke turned off his computer while bombing the Death Star.

Wut you say, lyin' little fucker?