(July 30, 2014 at 3:53 pm)alpha male Wrote: Huh? I've been forgiven. As Jesus died for the sins of the world, anyone can be forgiven.

You're missing the context. I mean "flat out forgiven" not "requires a blood sacrifice, then you get forgiveness".

If Jesus tells us to forgive people without some sacrifice or payment given to us, why does God need a sacrifice to forgive everyone's sins?

(July 30, 2014 at 3:53 pm)alpha male Wrote:

Quote:Is he asking us to behave in a more exalted way than himself or a less exalted way?

What specific passages are you referring to?

Matthew 18:22 tells us to forgive people 77 times. I was always taught that it's not a literal cap, but telling people to keep forgiving others.

That being said, your stance is that God, by his nature will not forgive sin because it is not just, so it must be atoned for. We, however, are not to ask for atonement from others. We're to simply forgive them. Why are we being asked to behave in a manner different than God? If God is the measure of what is moral, why aren't we supposed to demand atonement? If we simply forgive instead of demand atonement, are we behaving in a more exalted or less exalted way than God?

That being said, your stance is that God, by his nature will not forgive sin because it is not just, so it must be atoned for. We, however, are not to ask for atonement from others. We're to simply forgive them. Why are we being asked to behave in a manner different than God? If God is the measure of what is moral, why aren't we supposed to demand atonement? If we simply forgive instead of demand atonement, are we behaving in a more exalted or less exalted way than God?
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I think there's two aspects to answering that question:

1) your questions seems to reflect that you presume God is asking us to atone for our sins so that he can forgive us. But Jesus death is about God bearing the cost so that we maybe forgiven.

In many ways all forgiveness requires some cost. If someone harms me I can choose to retaliate and harm them back - which may be the just thing to do. But by forgiving them I choose to lose my rights to punish them and choosing instead to make peace with them. In other words I'm choosing to bear the cost of their sins by not retaliating and choosing to make peace instead.

2) The context of our sin against God that is atoned for through Jesus death is quite different from when we sin against one another.

God provided Adam (humanity) with a choice to be in relationship with him or live his own life apart from God. The consequences were clearly stated that if Adam chooses a life apart from God him and all humanity would physically and spiritually die. Adam chose death rather than relationship with God.

So clearly if God has made this promise he could choose to change his mind - and say actually the consequences I promised won't actually happen after all. But this just makes his promises meaningless.

But he didn't just leave it there. He instead took the much tougher option of keeping his promise of punishing the sin of Adam but instead he took that punishment himself.

So I think there is a very specific context of Adam's response receiving the consequences he was clearly promised. But yet still the mercy of God bearing those consequences rather than humanity.

The context of us as humans sinning against one another and forgiving one another is quite different.

(July 30, 2014 at 2:01 pm)alpha male Wrote: ETA: I see that orangebox beat me to this angle in saying, "From His nature. God is just. To simply overlook wrongdoing would be unjust. God cannot deny His nature."

Why doesn't Minimalist simply just...worship god?

What is "just" in punishing and/or murdering the innocent? The OT is riddled with slaughterhouse stories of infants, children, and animals all being brutally killed because this "just" god was pissed off at someone else.

Hosea 13:16
Samaria shall become desolate; for she hath rebelled against her God: they shall fall by the sword: their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with child shall be ripped up.


And god cannot deny his nature? Really?

Genesis 8:21
And the LORD smelled a sweet savour; and the LORD said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done.


** Which technically isn't true either, since he's gonna destroy everything again in revelations.

Numbers chapter 14 - God is fully pissed at the israelites for whining and is ready to zap them all, but Moses strokes his ego and talks him out of it.....proving that god CAN deny his nature and "overlook wrongdoing".

The problem is that Christians appear to define justice in this instance as whatever god thinks is just.

(July 30, 2014 at 7:31 pm)Jenny A Wrote: The problem is that Christians appear to define justice in this instance as whatever god thinks is just.

It's like this story:

The Lion went once a-hunting along with the Fox, the Jackal, and the Wolf. They hunted and they hunted till at last they surprised a Stag, and soon took its life. Then came the question how the spoil should be divided. "Quarter me this Stag," roared the Lion; so the other animals skinned it and cut it into four parts. Then the Lion took his stand in front of the carcass and pronounced judgment: The first quarter is for me in my capacity as King of Beasts; the second is mine as arbiter; another share comes to me for my part in the chase; and as for the fourth quarter, well, as for that, I should like to see which of you will dare to lay a paw upon it."

"Humph," grumbled the Fox as he walked away with his tail between his legs; but he spoke in a low growl."You may share the labours of the great, but you will not share the spoil."

(July 30, 2014 at 6:15 pm)RobbyPants Wrote: You're missing the context. I mean "flat out forgiven" not "requires a blood sacrifice, then you get forgiveness".

If Jesus tells us to forgive people without some sacrifice or payment given to us, why does God need a sacrifice to forgive everyone's sins?

Matthew 18:22 tells us to forgive people 77 times. I was always taught that it's not a literal cap, but telling people to keep forgiving others.

He doesn't tell us to flat out forgive. He tells us to forgive in recognition that He is forgiving us. You chose a good passage, but stopped reading too soon. Read vv. 23-35.

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(July 30, 2014 at 7:31 pm)Jenny A Wrote: The problem is that Christians appear to define justice in this instance as whatever god thinks is just.

Why is that a problem? An atheist defines justice as whatever he thinks is just. You don't seem to see that as problematic. Even if he uses a framework such as utilitarianism or the harm principle, the choice of framework is just his preference.

he said don't take the torah literally like the Torah thumpers where telling people.

(July 30, 2014 at 8:42 pm)alpha male Wrote:

(July 30, 2014 at 7:31 pm)Jenny A Wrote: The problem is that Christians appear to define justice in this instance as whatever god thinks is just.

Why is that a problem? An atheist defines justice as whatever he thinks is just. You don't seem to see that as problematic. Even if he uses a framework such as utilitarianism or the harm principle, the choice of framework is just his preference.

It's a problem because my rational mind, which assuming he exists, god gave me, tells me that he is unjust. The only framework under which god is just is one which considers only whether god's wishes are obeyed.

This goes back to the question are thing moral because they are moral, or are they moral because god says so?

Jesus was crucified because "god so loved the world", according to John 3:16.

When I was questioning the bible and my faith, I remember wondering why a god with the power and intelligence to create earth and everything on it, would choose something as archaic as crucifixion for the atonement of our sins/souls?!

And exactly where was this big "love" concept in the OT? Hell, he was so touchy then, that you could piss him off for wearing certain mixed cloths, or eating shellfish.

Malachi 3: 6 says "For I am the Lord, I change not;"

OT god = Create, drown, kill, punish, more killing, hate and slaughter your enemies (and their animals).
NT god = Love, forgive, turn the other cheek, love your enemies.

@ OP You cannot make sense of the senseless.

(July 30, 2014 at 10:08 pm)Jenny A Wrote: It's a problem because my rational mind, which assuming he exists, god gave me, tells me that he is unjust.

My mind tells me that he is just.

Quote:The only framework under which god is just is one which considers only whether god's wishes are obeyed.

And can you prove that your rationales are true, but this one is false?

Quote:This goes back to the question are thing moral because they are moral, or are they moral because god says so?

Because god says so. I've never seen the dilemma myself. IMO the creator has rights over his creation. You can disagree if you like, but in the end, you're just defining your own justice, the very thing you say is incorrect for god to do.