It does prove one thing.

That god is really a Jewish mom.

"Look what you made me do"

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(August 2, 2014 at 1:35 am)Polaris Wrote: The three days of suffering.

No, only a few hours, then three days in the tomb, where he was probably snorting coke off Mary Magdelenes tits and getting pissed on cheap wine.

If you think about it, it's not even a valid sacrifice. We spend eternity suffering for our sins. Compared to that, Jesus had a paper cut and a weekend off.

If anything, it just proves that God's eternal "price for sin" is objectively meaningless and pointless cruelty. Might makes right.

This thread promises to be quite entertaining. Already we've had several large, wet, steaming piles dropped in piss poor attempts to convince us that what jeebus allegedly suffered was a real sacrifice.

Taking the fatal bullet aimed at a child that's not even yours is a sacrifice. Taking another victim's place at a beheading is a sacrifice. Not really dying, then being given (quite literally according to that holy book of bullshit) the keys to the kingdom. Not so much.

(August 1, 2014 at 7:51 pm)Welsh cake Wrote: You clearly don't know what the word "sacrifice" means.

Yes, I do. I checked to make sure.
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/sacrifice

It has a wider range of meaning than you give it credit for. And seems reasonable to me that it could have differences when applied to god himself than when applied to a created animal.

Animal sacrifice is an analogy for Jesus' atonement for us on the cross. All analogies fail at some point. The Bible also says that we've been ransomed, redeemed, and purchased. And, yes, those analogies fall short in some ways too. So what?

Quote:Even if we accept your ridiculous premise, the *resurrection* and ascending to heaven as a reward completely negates it.

Thus the glorification renders the whole crucifixion utterly pointless.

I disagree. When someone does something heroic for others, the resulting glory doesn't negate the heroism. You're quite the cynic.

(August 1, 2014 at 8:03 pm)professor Wrote: WC, your manager buys you a drink and you refuse to take it.
This is the position those who refuse the price paid for them are in.
Thank you for the illustration.

You mean analogy. And no, we're talking about the purchase itself.

Not, whether or not we decide to show gratitude, that's another debate altogether.

You're saying because we don't acknowledge the acquisition, we should "pay for our 'sins' ourselves". How can we do that if someone else just paid for them?

All sales are final. No returns, no credits or exchanges, you buy it, its yours. The manager has paid for the drink. And you believe Jesus has paid for our sins.

It shouldn't matter to you whether we refuse to accept Jesus making amendments, this, in your belief system, doesn't negate the recompense itself.

The reason why you seek to contradict your own Bible's teachings is because it puts you in a very awkward position that begets cognitive dissonance. You want the blame for 'damning part' of the damnation, to lie with the sinner. You want it to be our fault. You want to believe Jesus is all-good and all-loving, yet the implication that he now OWNS all of humanity, means the decision to choose to save some, yet damn others, or save all, or damn all, is ultimately his, not ours.

You don't want to accept Christ is the one in control who damns people.

Quote:Matthew 25:41
"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

Sorry, but your zombie lord, is just as monstrous as the old testament god. He preaches forgiveness, yet forgets to practice it himself whenever its convenient for him.

(August 1, 2014 at 8:14 pm)ChadWooters Wrote: To be beaten to a bloody pulp with glass shard whips, having His forehead shredded by twisted needles, and left hanging from metal spikes driven through your wrists for a crowd of people that could give a shit...JUST BECAUSE HE LOVES THEM.

We're not talking about the torture he experienced, or why he had to experience it,. We're talking about whether or not this was actually a *sacrifice*. Now think about this please: coming back to life, and gaining powers and glory beyond imagination, acquiring all the souls of humanity, becoming second only to god, is, once again, NOT. A. SACRIFICE.

Quote:Only an insensitive and ungrateful douche-bag like you would say that's not a sacrifice.

Only someone who doesn't understand the English language like you would say it is a sacrifice.

For your sake, go back to school.

Quote:I bet a lamebrain like you couldn't stop stroking your own prick, much less your ego, for less than 5 minutes.

You're actually butthurt over this?

Do you even read fiction? You know, the stories, where a character dies to save another character's life? And stays dead because they've died?

No?

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(August 2, 2014 at 6:49 am)alpha male Wrote: Yes, I do.

No, you don't. Clearly, otherwise we wouldn't be having this discussion.

Quote:And, yes, those analogies fall short in some ways too. So what?

What do you mean so what? The fact that your argument is falling apart should concern you at this moment in time.

Quote:I disagree.

Oh I'm sure you do.

Quote:When someone does something heroic for others, the resulting glory doesn't negate the heroism. You're quite the cynic.

We're not talking about the heroism of the act. We're talking about whether or not its a sacrifice.

When there's a sacrifice - something is lost in order to protect or save something else.

Christ lost nothing of consequence in the scriptures, he's not gone, HE GAINED EVERYTHING. Do you not understand this?

(August 2, 2014 at 1:05 am)Ryantology (╯°◊°)╯︵ ══╬ Wrote: Show me where you've objectively proven the existence of your specific God...If you can prove that your specific god is objectively real, then ...

Therein lies your problem. You fail to accept 50% of reality.

(August 2, 2014 at 2:27 am)Ryantology (╯°◊°)╯︵ ══╬ Wrote: If you think about it, it's not even a valid sacrifice. We spend eternity suffering for our sins. Compared to that, Jesus had a paper cut and a weekend off.

If anything, it just proves that God's eternal "price for sin" is objectively meaningless and pointless cruelty. Might makes right.

Are there some really awesome torments Satan might have inflicted upon Jesus to make up for the short stay ??

Satan thinks to himself, "Hmmmm, I've only got the boss's kid for a matter of hours, better make it look good!"

Why is Christ's life a sacrifice? Well to be fair the guy was pretty keen on the wine. He sacrificed a whole weekend! A lot could've happened in that time.

(August 2, 2014 at 7:12 am)Welsh cake Wrote: No, you don't. Clearly, otherwise we wouldn't be having this discussion.

We're having the discussion because you don't understand the meaning, or rather, insist on one narrow meaning.

A parent who takes on a second job to put a child through college can rightly be said to be making a sacrifice for the child. All that they're giving up is some free time.

Quote:What do you mean so what? The fact that your argument is falling apart should concern you at this moment in time.

As I explained, I mean that, since all analogies have shortcomings, reasonable people aren't overly concerned when a shortcoming in their analogy is presented. In this case, yes, the analogy of a sacrificial animal is not 100% equivalent to Jesus. So what? No analogy is perfect, and his suffering for us falls within the broader meaning of sacrifice.

Quote:We're not talking about the heroism of the act. We're talking about whether or not its a sacrifice.

When there's a sacrifice - something is lost in order to protect or save something else.

And as noted, the loss can be as simple as leisure time and still correctly be called a sacrifice.

Quote:Christ lost nothing of consequence in the scriptures, he's not gone, HE GAINED EVERYTHING. Do you not understand this?

HE SUFFERED ON THE CROSS FOR OTHERS. Do you not understand this?

Christ could have trimmed his fingernails to the same effect.

He might also have remained in Hell for a thousand years.