Our server costs ~$56 per month to run. Please consider donating or becoming a Patron to help keep the site running. Help us gain new members by following us on Twitter and liking our page on Facebook!
(August 11, 2014 at 7:13 am)Drich Wrote: Can you provide a link to where I said that and a post number?
Well... It appears to be the point of this thread and what you are saying in basically every post you made in it. But you are probably trying to communicate that you meant something else. All the time.
Which is of course totally okay.
Now to figure out what you did mean...
The thread is titled 'why knocking is important'.
Why is it? What does it accomplish?
So.. You can't provide the collaborating evidence I asked for to support your "quote" of what I said? Rather you moved to a red herring tactic to try and take the spotlight of your intellectual dishonesty.
Sorry sport it's not going to be that easy. The reason you will not be able to support your quote is because you are not quoting anything I would actually say In The context you were using it. Where you failed was that you were representing a general understanding of Christianity, and assuming I would agree.
I don't, therefore your efforts can be labeled at best inaccurate/creator of straw men in your initial post, but your follow up work and this red herring tactic escalates you to the level of intellectually dishonest.
What does it say about your character if you have to resort to intellectual dishonesty to 'win' a foolish argument?
(August 12, 2014 at 9:22 am)Drich Wrote: God answered your prayer.
That's kind of what I was referring to. If it works, then god. If it doesn't work, then god. Just fit the explanation to the results, and you confirm the results. But without a way to verify it for all to see, anyone can create an explanation that is self-serving. The explanation that there is no god, and that you find whatever you want to find, works just as well.
Drich Wrote:God is simple not in the business of revealing Himself to us on our terms.
Why not? Why would the pre-eminent power in the universe, a being of indescribable strength and unimaginable greatness, be so petty and fickle about letting us know he's there? Especially when he had no issues with revealing himself to people in the past, and making his presence very clear.
I don't understand how it would be ruinous to a person's faith for god to show himself. Wouldn't we be more likely to trust in god if we knew for certain that he exists? Isn't the idea that one day god will reward the faithful by allowing them into his presence? What's so wrong about showing up early?
Yeah that last part is a huge problem I have with a lot of theologian's attempts at explaining God. Apparently if he gave us undeniable evidence of his existence, we would no longer need faith because we would have evidence...which is somehow bad? But, if you speak to theists, many will say they do have incontrovertible and undeniable evidence of God, either through looking at creation or through a personal experience. So..apparently they get to have the revelation that cannot be denied, but I can't?
Also, I don't know why God changed his policy on revealing himself to us, since the number of miracles and godly acts in the Bible is so high. Maybe he just got tired.
In every country and every age, the priest had been hostile to Liberty.
- Thomas Jefferson
(August 11, 2014 at 11:12 am)FallentoReason Wrote:
Drich Wrote:Let's say you did have a humble and contrite heart when you asked God to help you find Him or when you genuinely asked for proof of Him. But let's also say you had a really messed up idea of who God is and what He wants from you.
Now if God gave you confirmation that He does indeed exist, it would cement your version of God (flaws mistakes and all) in your mind.
Why can't God confirm He exists *and* teach us about his true self? I mean, c'mon.. the atheist made it this far already by choosing to humble themselves and sincerely search for God. Is God really going to be that tight and still refuse the atheist a chance at being saved based on a technicality?
It makes more sense for God to not exist, than for this benevolent being with a will to be in relationship with us to continually deny us the knowledge of his existence unless the planets align, and we are in this perfect state of mind while knowing precisely the nature of God such that our view of Him isn't flawed.
We're only human, after all.
Bump
"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it" ~ Aristotle
August 12, 2014 at 10:04 am (This post was last modified: August 12, 2014 at 10:14 am by Bibliofagus.)
(August 12, 2014 at 8:53 am)Thumpalumpacus Wrote: Are you being deliberately obtuse?
I asked him to clear this up pages ago. No answer.
Edit: got ninjaad there. Please disregard.
And edit 2:
Read his answer. I'd say he is being deliberately obtuse.
(August 12, 2014 at 9:51 am)Drich Wrote:
(August 11, 2014 at 10:58 am)Bibliofagus Wrote: Well... It appears to be the point of this thread and what you are saying in basically every post you made in it. But you are probably trying to communicate that you meant something else. All the time.
Which is of course totally okay.
Now to figure out what you did mean...
The thread is titled 'why knocking is important'.
Why is it? What does it accomplish?
So.. You can't provide the collaborating evidence I asked for to support your "quote" of what I said? Rather you moved to a red herring tactic to try and take the spotlight of your intellectual dishonesty.
Sorry sport it's not going to be that easy. The reason you will not be able to support your quote is because you are not quoting anything I would actually say In The context you were using it. Where you failed was that you were representing a general understanding of Christianity, and assuming I would agree.
I don't, therefore your efforts can be labeled at best inaccurate/creator of straw men in your initial post, but your follow up work and this red herring tactic escalates you to the level of intellectually dishonest.
What does it say about your character if you have to resort to intellectual dishonesty to 'win' a foolish argument?
I didn't realise admitting I may have misunderstood and asking what you do mean qualifies as a 'red herring' and 'intellectual dishonesty'.
(August 11, 2014 at 11:12 am)FallentoReason Wrote: Why can't God confirm He exists *and* teach us about his true self? I mean, c'mon.. the atheist made it this far already by choosing to humble themselves and sincerely search for God. Is God really going to be that tight and still refuse the atheist a chance at being saved based on a technicality?
Take the word "God" out as the subject of your question and insert the word 'truth' or better yet the word evolution.
Now let me ask you why can you teach YEC's evolution?
Because no matter what you say it is from the devil. And if the devil is alive and well then it must mean their version of God is too.
The way God does it now the foolish builders faith gets washed away, (they let go what they believe willingly) placing the with the opportunity to truly seek out God.
Quote:It makes more sense for God to not exist, than for this benevolent being with a will to be in relationship with us to continually deny us the knowledge of his existence unless the planets align, and we are in this perfect state of mind while knowing precisely the nature of God such that our view of Him isn't flawed.
We're only human, after all.
How many times over the years have you made the charge God is not benevolent?
Yet now He is?
Just a fun thought for me.
I don't get the issue you are having. It's not like we have no way of knowing God. It just that we are not born with full knowledge of His knowable glory. We have to humble ourselves to receive this gift. I do not understand why this is such a big issue. Living like this allows those who want to know God the opportunity to do so, and those who do not the opportunity[/quote] to turn a blind eye, and still be able to sleep at night.
(August 11, 2014 at 11:12 am)FallentoReason Wrote: Why can't God confirm He exists *and* teach us about his true self? I mean, c'mon.. the atheist made it this far already by choosing to humble themselves and sincerely search for God. Is God really going to be that tight and still refuse the atheist a chance at being saved based on a technicality?
Take the word "God" out as the subject of your question and insert the word 'truth' or better yet the word evolution.
Now let me ask you why can you teach YEC's evolution?
Because no matter what you say it is from the devil. And if the devil is alive and well then it must mean their version of God is too.
The way God does it now the foolish builders faith gets washed away, (they let go what they believe willingly) placing the with the opportunity to truly seek out God.
This is why I said why can't he reveal himself and also teach us about his *true* self? It's like me saying my friend exists, and you say 'oh, your friend John?' and then my friend speaks for himself and says 'my name is actually Bob'.
Simple.
Quote:
Quote:It makes more sense for God to not exist, than for this benevolent being with a will to be in relationship with us to continually deny us the knowledge of his existence unless the planets align, and we are in this perfect state of mind while knowing precisely the nature of God such that our view of Him isn't flawed.
We're only human, after all.
How many times over the years have you made the charge God is not benevolent?
Yet now He is?
Just a fun thought for me.
I remember you stating that the 'true' Christian teaching is that God is merely benevolent and not quite in the ranks of omnibenevolence. Therefore I'm stating back the things that you believe in my argument, so as to be on the same page with you.
Quote:I don't get the issue you are having. It's not like we have no way of knowing God. It just that we are not born with full knowledge of His knowable glory. We have to humble ourselves to receive this gift. I do not understand why this is such a big issue. Living like this allows those who want to know God the opportunity to do so, and those who do not the opportunity to turn a blind eye, and still be able to sleep at night.
Yes, we have to humble ourselves, I get that. And that is where my argument began; some atheists do indeed humble themselves and so.. etc etc.
Read my post again perhaps.
P.s. Hi Drich!
"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it" ~ Aristotle
August 12, 2014 at 10:30 am (This post was last modified: August 12, 2014 at 10:46 am by Drich.)
(August 11, 2014 at 1:12 pm)Insanity Wrote: I'm really not sure what to say, I feel like either you have intentionally skipped the point I was making twice or we are on completely different wavelengths.
The points are these:
That the starting point of your 'knocking' idea is flawed just by the fact with people like myself their can be no sincere starting point. Although my parents were slightly religious it was not a thing I was ever brought up around so has never crossed my mind. Actually being a believer in your god is as alien to me as being a Scientologist probably is to you.
The starting point is what Christ referred to as "the faith of a mustard seed." All one needs is the smallest measure of said faith and He said He it will move mountains of doubt.
Quote:2nd Even if there was a starting point, it is clear that the idea is circular in that if it fails you try again until it works. Knowing the way in which humans work, trying to force an ideology in that way could work for anything regardless of wither it is correct or not. I challenge you to the same technique but for Allah, you can't tell me it doesn't work because in that case you just clearly haven't done it correctly.
thats just it your not trying anything in A/S/K. You are simply looking for the truth.
Quote:I've read the bible, I actually did religious studies as one of my choices in school and college. Both times I studied Judaism and Christianity. If I learned anything it is that the bible is vague enough that it can mean just about anything you need it too.
the Holy Spirit however is not so vague. This is what we receive when we ask seek and knock as outlined in luke 11.
Quote:Have you ever seen the book of Eli?
one of my favorite movies
Quote:Its funny I have no idea if that film was meant to be for or against religion. Perhaps both.
Against religion and the evil men who would use it for their own gain. And for God. As God preserved his word in Eli and gave sight to a blind man to complete his task.
Perfect example of what a corrupt 'supported' view of God can do.[/quote]
(August 11, 2014 at 3:07 pm)ShaMan Wrote: Hey Drich... Think of how many souls aren't being won by you because you spend your time bashing your head against a wall on AF!
How about you stop casting your version of god's pearls at we swine here online? WWJD? He'd have left long ago, and advises you to do so as well.
Matthew 7:6 Wrote:6 “Do not give what is holy to dogs, and do not throw your pearls before swine, or they will trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you to pieces."
You're wasting resources bro....
Your new huh?
Amongst the [s]minnies[s/] swine there are a few prodigals who feel the have no choice but to live and eat as the swine do. While I do and have shaken the dust from my feet and turn from them, I am still here for the prodigals who simply think they are swine.
(August 11, 2014 at 3:10 pm)Insanity Wrote:
(August 11, 2014 at 2:49 pm)Drich Wrote: I honestly do not care who is ruling over Britain. I used the queen as a possiable example for a specific delima that I do not think anyone has addressed yet.
If its the one I read yesterday I can address it right now. The leader of most nations is constantly on camera and reported on by hundreds if not thousands of news outlets almost daily. Even if I doubted those I could probably go to some kind of event where I could see that person with my own eyes. They also have a clear and obvious effect on the world that is easily observed by all.
For god it is entirely from a handful of ancient books of which the origins are not particularly trustworthy at best and outright fabricated and fraudulent at worst. That and peoples testimony that they somehow feel that there is a god, even then they rarely agree on what that god is or wants.
Could the world leaders not be real? I guess. I have far more reason to believe they exist than for a deity.
Again not talking about the people who hold the office. I am speaking to the office itself.
As most would agree Jesus was real, what is in question is His claim to His office.
(August 11, 2014 at 3:34 pm)Jenny A Wrote:
(August 11, 2014 at 3:18 pm)Drich Wrote: Feelings have nothing to do with biblical Christianity.
When knocking what should one expect but a feeling? Or is it lightening bolts you have in mind?
Spiritual fruit, followed by spiritual gifts.
Gal 5:22 forward
1cor 12 the chapter.
(August 11, 2014 at 3:44 pm)Ryantology (╯°◊°)╯︵ ══╬ Wrote:
(August 11, 2014 at 2:49 pm)Drich Wrote: I honestly do not care who is ruling over Britain. I used the queen as a possiable example for a specific delima that I do not think anyone has addressed yet.
The identity of the subject is completely irrelevant. I understand entirely what you were attempting to do. What I did was point out the dilemma that you refuse to address.
The delima is irrelevant, as it does not address the aspect of the analogy I was intending to use.
No matter who the queen of England is, belief in the office or the acknowledgement the power the office holds is what was being discussed. That is why I never mentioned a specific queen or president.
(August 11, 2014 at 4:41 pm)KUSA Wrote: There is no God Drippy. I knocked on the nonexistent gods door and got a nonexistent answer. If there is a god then he needs to knock on my door now.
what if He doesn't like you well enough to knock? What if He rather see you rot in Hell? Then what?
Quote:Also for your information, there are as many versions of God as there are people that believe in a god. So when you say that someone is worshipping their Version of God then that applies to everyone including you.
(August 12, 2014 at 9:22 am)Drich Wrote: you guys all act as if I made this stuff up. Read luke 11. This is what Christ Himself says it takes. All I am adding is that what it took for me.
We know you didn't make it up.
It was made up for you a long time ago.
And Luke (or whoever wrote that) understood it as a nice mechanism to get those who already believe in something to convince themselves that that something is for real.
All the objections we can make today, were probably already made way back then, except that now we have psychology and neurology to aid us in understanding what is actually happening.
It is a clear self-deluding mechanism. A mechanism so powerful it can work for almost anything, but it's far easier to make it work for something that has no physical manifestation, for that would immediately falsify the belief and lay bare the delusion for what it is.
I can't seem to find the post where we all were recently speaking of knocking so I am starting this new thread rather than hijack someone else's.
I know many of us have had this discussion before. Where you say bla bla bla bla, no proof of God Bla bla bla..
Then I say if you want proof, what better proof of God, is their than God Himself?
Then you say: bla bla bla how can God be proof, of God? (insert insult) bla bla! Ha, Ha , Ha
Then I say A/S/K (ask seek knock) as out lined in luke 11. And you will be given a measure of the Holy Spirit.
You say: bla bla bla, "I did when i; bla bla bla, and got nothing in response. So now I am an atheist."
Then me: if you're not currently seeking you have not A/S/K'ed as outlined in luke 11. Because again the persistent neighbor did not stop knocking till he got what he was looking for..
So if you stopped before you got what you were looking for, you did not follow the outline Christ Gave.
Then the conversation generally turns to all the different reasons knocking does not apply to you..
Before we go down another bla bla bla road, let's try going down the other fork in this conversation.
Let's say you did have a humble and contrite heart when you asked God to help you find Him or when you genuinely asked for proof of Him. But let's also say you had a really messed up idea of who God is and what He wants from you.
Now if God gave you confirmation that He does indeed exist, it would cement your version of God (flaws mistakes and all) in your mind.
I assume most of you are familiar with the parable of the wise and foolish builders/the man who built his house on the sand and the man who built his house upon the rock.
If not it starts at verse 24: https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se...rsion=NASB
Both men had the same objective here and that was to build his own house. In the story our house is our legacy or our effort to build a relationship with God. (Empty Religion or religious effort for short)
Meaning a wise man (man who truly knows God) and a foolish man (a man who does not know God) can live a life and do the exact same things as the wise man does.(which result in a house/religion) for both. However according to Christ one house will stand and one house will fall when tested.
When you ask for God to send 'proof.' Or to strengthen your relationship with Him he sends the rains to test/proof your house. Meaning if the picture of God you have/your religious views are based on the biblical portrayal of God you will see God as your foundation. (You will be able to see the proof He sends in the Holy Spirit.) However if you have built your understanding of God on the empty religions of your fathers then it is more likely that your house will have been washed away.
This is why it is so important to continue knocking. Because in your prayer you asked to see God, and rather than God allow you to continue to build a 'house' on a corrupt foundation, He will simply stop supporting your house/religious beliefs, allowing your house to collapse under its own fatal flaws.
This is where many of you are at. You sought God and rather than re enforce your ideas of what God is, He has taken those imperfect images from you, by giving you the proof you need to disqualify those pictures of Him as being 'God.'
You all have done the hard part, and that is cast off the empty traditional beliefs, God has help you in wiping your slate clean. The question then becomes, what do you want to build on your slate now? Do any of you still have the desire to seek God? (Most of you are more than 1/2 way there.) or do you assume just because you disqualified the idea of God you had as a child means no other version of God can possibly exist.
How much pride does it take to assume that the picture/understanding of God you had as a child, can even be close to the creator of everything?
Lol Drich. Forget ask seek knock. If a real live person cannot give real scientific evidence, then I am not interested. If you asked and sought and knocked and you found god inside your brain then good for you. I've got my own chemical imbalances to worry about. I don't have time for yours.
(August 21, 2017 at 11:31 pm)KevinM1 Wrote: "I'm not a troll"
Religious Views: He gay
0/10
Hammy Wrote:and we also have a sheep on our bed underneath as well
![[Image: bash-head.gif]](https://images.weserv.nl/?url=www.sherv.net%2Fcm%2Femoticons%2Ffighting%2Fbash-head.gif)
