(June 8, 2010 at 1:22 am)Saerules Wrote:

TFS Wrote:well... i think you're wrong. i don't get your happy human example. in every universe 2 + 2 = 4. in every universe, you should be able to perform logical operations. even in heaven!

The happy human is A: happy, and B: human... and therefore both a and b at once. Hence the necessary addition of 'exclusively'.

Why would not 2 + 2 be 22 in a universe? What about universes necessitates the answer to be 4? Further... why would one in every universe be able to perform 'logical operations'?

the 'a' in your case is a property, not an object.

why not 2 + 2 = 22: because in any universe you should be able to count to four with your fingers. if you teleported to a different universe and somehow you were in a bubble that contains the conditions in our universe that support life, you would still be able to point to four objects in this other universe. intelligent lifeforms in different universes would use math in the same way we do.

TFS Wrote:the 'a' in your case is a property, not an object.

And are you suggesting that an 'object' is not an attribute given to otherwise meaningless matter?

Quote:why not 2 + 2 = 22: because in any universe you should be able to count to four with your fingers.

I can already refute that, in this very universe. A man has only 3 fingers. 2 on his left hand... one on his right. Similarly... why should one with at least 22 fingers not be able to count to 22 with them?

Quote:If you teleported to a different universe and somehow you were in a bubble that contains the conditions in our universe that support life, you would still be able to point to four objects in this other universe.

Surely not necessarily... what if there were no objects in this other universe? Perhaps one's ability to point in this universe is lacking? Maybe there is but one great object in this universe? Perhaps one can count to every number save 4 in this universe, for it does not exist? Perhaps numbers do not exist in this universe... and by chance perhaps logic does not either?

Quote:Intelligent lifeforms in different universes would use math in the same way we do.

Why? Perhaps they are even using the same 'system' of math, but have discovered something about it that we have not, and are thusly using it differently. About like a modern society's mathematics compared to the math of a stone age civilization And then again... perhaps their math is formulated entirely differently, and cannot occur in our universe. And then again... it may be that math simply does not exist in a different universe... or perhaps even "intelligent lifeforms" do not exist in the universe to discover and make use of the math

(June 8, 2010 at 2:00 am)Saerules Wrote:

TFS Wrote:the 'a' in your case is a property, not an object.

And are you suggesting that an 'object' is not an attribute given to otherwise meaningless matter?

understanding how logics and math applies to any universe is easier when you think about it mathematically. you wouldn't group happiness and humans in a group of two unless you were grouping them as two concepts that are different but equally concepts. the 'law' of logics i was describing is as simple as you can't exist and not exist at the same time.

Quote:why not 2 + 2 = 22: because in any universe you should be able to count to four with your fingers.

(June 8, 2010 at 2:00 am)Saerules Wrote: I can already refute that, in this very universe. A man has only 3 fingers. 2 on his left hand... one on his right. Similarly... why should one with at least 22 fingers not be able to count to 22 with them?

it's easy to create new counting systems but they are just different ways to describe the same thing. like how a binary counting system may be translated to our base 10 counting system in our universe (see you don't even need to go to other universes to make new counting systems). you must be sleepy... 2 + 2 = 4 in a base 10 counting system in any universe. my example of you counting four fingers had nothing to do with your fingers but just you acknowledging 4 objects, no matter the counting system you choose.

Quote:If you teleported to a different universe and somehow you were in a bubble that contains the conditions in our universe that support life, you would still be able to point to four objects in this other universe.

(June 8, 2010 at 2:00 am)Saerules Wrote: Surely not necessarily... what if there were no objects in this other universe? Perhaps one's ability to point in this universe is lacking? Maybe there is but one great object in this universe? Perhaps one can count to every number save 4 in this universe, for it does not exist? Perhaps numbers do not exist in this universe... and by chance perhaps logic does not either?

yeah i thought of an empty universe. the laws of logic still apply. you have to use logic to deduce that the universe is empty right? you made a numerical analysis to say that there are 0 objects in the universe besides yourself. i guess saying that logics applies to an empty universe isn't helpful or useful in a similar way to the last man on the world saying he has morals (how is having morals useful when you're the last person on Earth?). numbers always exist. there may not be an intelligence to acknowledge numbers or verbalize numbers but wherever there is an intelligence there is numerical analysis. unless you want to say that logics and math don't exist until they are acknowledged by intelligence in that universe.

Quote:Intelligent lifeforms in different universes would use math in the same way we do.

(June 8, 2010 at 2:00 am)Saerules Wrote: Why? Perhaps they are even using the same 'system' of math, but have discovered something about it that we have not, and are thusly using it differently. About like a modern society's mathematics compared to the math of a stone age civilization And then again... perhaps their math is formulated entirely differently, and cannot occur in our universe. And then again... it may be that math simply does not exist in a different universe... or perhaps even "intelligent lifeforms" do not exist in the universe to discover and make use of the math

maybe they've solved more problems in math that are useful in their universe. i'd think that all mathematical problems in our universe would be useful to humanoid life in other universes, under the assumption that all universes are at least 4 dimensional but even in a 2 dimensional universe (nonsense to me) the same logic we use would be applied to come to conclusions.

when i said that they are using math in the same way i do i meant in its simplest form. i didn't mean that whatever civilization may exist in other universes must be at the same level as we are in math.... calculus would be applicable to any universe in solving for the area of irregular shapes or the rate of change of a specific point of an irregular 'path' if i may.

(June 8, 2010 at 2:25 am)The_Flying_Skeptic Wrote:

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(June 8, 2010 at 2:00 am)Saerules Wrote:

TFS Wrote:the 'a' in your case is a property, not an object.

And are you suggesting that an 'object' is not an attribute given to otherwise meaningless matter?

understanding how logics and math applies to any universe is easier when you think about it mathematically. you wouldn't group happiness and humans in a group of two unless you were grouping them as two concepts that are different but equally concepts. the 'law' of logics i was describing is as simple as you can't exist and not exist at the same time.

Quote:why not 2 + 2 = 22: because in any universe you should be able to count to four with your fingers.

(June 8, 2010 at 2:00 am)Saerules Wrote: I can already refute that, in this very universe. A man has only 3 fingers. 2 on his left hand... one on his right. Similarly... why should one with at least 22 fingers not be able to count to 22 with them?

it's easy to create new counting systems but they are just different ways to describe the same thing. like how a binary counting system may be translated to our base 10 counting system in our universe (see you don't even need to go to other universes to make new counting systems). you must be sleepy... 2 + 2 = 4 in a base 10 counting system in any universe. my example of you counting four fingers had nothing to do with your fingers but just you acknowledging 4 objects, no matter the counting system you choose.

Quote:If you teleported to a different universe and somehow you were in a bubble that contains the conditions in our universe that support life, you would still be able to point to four objects in this other universe.

(June 8, 2010 at 2:00 am)Saerules Wrote: Surely not necessarily... what if there were no objects in this other universe? Perhaps one's ability to point in this universe is lacking? Maybe there is but one great object in this universe? Perhaps one can count to every number save 4 in this universe, for it does not exist? Perhaps numbers do not exist in this universe... and by chance perhaps logic does not either?

yeah i thought of an empty universe. the laws of logic still apply. you have to use logic to deduce that the universe is empty right? you made a numerical analysis to say that there are 0 objects in the universe besides yourself. i guess saying that logics applies to an empty universe isn't helpful or useful in a similar way to the last man on the world saying he has morals (how is having morals useful when you're the last person on Earth?). numbers always exist. there may not be an intelligence to acknowledge numbers or verbalize numbers but wherever there is an intelligence there is numerical analysis. unless you want to say that logics and math don't exist until they are acknowledged by intelligence in that universe.

Quote:Intelligent lifeforms in different universes would use math in the same way we do.

(June 8, 2010 at 2:00 am)Saerules Wrote: Why? Perhaps they are even using the same 'system' of math, but have discovered something about it that we have not, and are thusly using it differently. About like a modern society's mathematics compared to the math of a stone age civilization And then again... perhaps their math is formulated entirely differently, and cannot occur in our universe. And then again... it may be that math simply does not exist in a different universe... or perhaps even "intelligent lifeforms" do not exist in the universe to discover and make use of the math

maybe they've solved more problems in math that are useful in their universe. i'd think that all mathematical problems in our universe would be useful to humanoid life in other universes, under the assumption that all universes are at least 4 dimensional but even in a 2 dimensional universe (nonsense to me) the same logic we use would be applied to come to conclusions.

when i said that they are using math in the same way i do i meant in its simplest form. i didn't mean that whatever civilization may exist in other universes must be at the same level as we are in math.... calculus would be applicable to any universe in solving for the area of irregular shapes or the rate of change of a specific point of an irregular 'path' if i may.

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I think that what your arguments point to is that it is very difficult, if not impossible, for us humans to conceive of another universe in which logic and mathematics do not apply.

However, its quite another matter to assume that such illogical universes are in fact impossible. Why should possible universes be limited to what humans can conceive of?

I kind of get what he's saying. The thought that there could actually be an illogical universe in existence seems rather... illogical. In other words, I cannot fathom such a possibility and neither can anyone else. I can say that there is that possibility, but I cannot even begin to imagine how it could possibly exist. So... I would tend to dismiss that possibility.

(June 8, 2010 at 5:59 pm)Caecilian Wrote: However, its quite another matter to assume that such illogical universes are in fact impossible. Why should possible universes be limited to what humans can conceive of?

Humans didn't conceive of it they observed it... the logic of a functioning universe

To function at all requires some sustainable natural, to that universe, law.

(June 8, 2010 at 1:02 am)Saerules Wrote: I see no reason to make the assumption that all universes are logical. In some universe... perhaps a thing that is x is also a thing that is y, b, Q, e, and d...

All universes should be logical, because:
1) You enter any random universe.
2) You are taking place in that universe.
3) Therefore, space should exist for your entrance-possibility.

1) You enter any random universe.
2) You are in that universe.
3) Therefore you are an element of that universe. (You ∈ Universe)

1) You, call yourself X, are in any random universe.
2) X is an entity in that universe.
3) Therefore, X is not Y. (Let's say that Y is a rock)

It's crucial for how you/everyone define 'a universe'. I notice that many people misunderstands the notion of 'empty space'.
If you can draw a circle in our universe, then you should be able to do that in other universes, therefore the mathematical irrational constant pi must be the same in other universes.

(June 8, 2010 at 1:02 am)Saerules Wrote: and I see not a reason why it would have to be true of all universes.

Having no reason for the lack of seeing any reason is not any better solution than logical reasoning.

(June 8, 2010 at 5:59 pm)Caecilian Wrote:

(June 8, 2010 at 2:25 am)The_Flying_Skeptic Wrote:

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(June 8, 2010 at 2:00 am)Saerules Wrote:

TFS Wrote:the 'a' in your case is a property, not an object.

And are you suggesting that an 'object' is not an attribute given to otherwise meaningless matter?

understanding how logics and math applies to any universe is easier when you think about it mathematically. you wouldn't group happiness and humans in a group of two unless you were grouping them as two concepts that are different but equally concepts. the 'law' of logics i was describing is as simple as you can't exist and not exist at the same time.

Quote:why not 2 + 2 = 22: because in any universe you should be able to count to four with your fingers.

(June 8, 2010 at 2:00 am)Saerules Wrote: I can already refute that, in this very universe. A man has only 3 fingers. 2 on his left hand... one on his right. Similarly... why should one with at least 22 fingers not be able to count to 22 with them?

it's easy to create new counting systems but they are just different ways to describe the same thing. like how a binary counting system may be translated to our base 10 counting system in our universe (see you don't even need to go to other universes to make new counting systems). you must be sleepy... 2 + 2 = 4 in a base 10 counting system in any universe. my example of you counting four fingers had nothing to do with your fingers but just you acknowledging 4 objects, no matter the counting system you choose.

Quote:If you teleported to a different universe and somehow you were in a bubble that contains the conditions in our universe that support life, you would still be able to point to four objects in this other universe.

(June 8, 2010 at 2:00 am)Saerules Wrote: Surely not necessarily... what if there were no objects in this other universe? Perhaps one's ability to point in this universe is lacking? Maybe there is but one great object in this universe? Perhaps one can count to every number save 4 in this universe, for it does not exist? Perhaps numbers do not exist in this universe... and by chance perhaps logic does not either?

yeah i thought of an empty universe. the laws of logic still apply. you have to use logic to deduce that the universe is empty right? you made a numerical analysis to say that there are 0 objects in the universe besides yourself. i guess saying that logics applies to an empty universe isn't helpful or useful in a similar way to the last man on the world saying he has morals (how is having morals useful when you're the last person on Earth?). numbers always exist. there may not be an intelligence to acknowledge numbers or verbalize numbers but wherever there is an intelligence there is numerical analysis. unless you want to say that logics and math don't exist until they are acknowledged by intelligence in that universe.

Quote:Intelligent lifeforms in different universes would use math in the same way we do.

(June 8, 2010 at 2:00 am)Saerules Wrote: Why? Perhaps they are even using the same 'system' of math, but have discovered something about it that we have not, and are thusly using it differently. About like a modern society's mathematics compared to the math of a stone age civilization And then again... perhaps their math is formulated entirely differently, and cannot occur in our universe. And then again... it may be that math simply does not exist in a different universe... or perhaps even "intelligent lifeforms" do not exist in the universe to discover and make use of the math

maybe they've solved more problems in math that are useful in their universe. i'd think that all mathematical problems in our universe would be useful to humanoid life in other universes, under the assumption that all universes are at least 4 dimensional but even in a 2 dimensional universe (nonsense to me) the same logic we use would be applied to come to conclusions.

when i said that they are using math in the same way i do i meant in its simplest form. i didn't mean that whatever civilization may exist in other universes must be at the same level as we are in math.... calculus would be applicable to any universe in solving for the area of irregular shapes or the rate of change of a specific point of an irregular 'path' if i may.

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I think that what your arguments point to is that it is very difficult, if not impossible, for us humans to conceive of another universe in which logic and mathematics do not apply.

However, its quite another matter to assume that such illogical universes are in fact impossible. Why should possible universes be limited to what humans can conceive of?

If you are considering that conceiving an illogical universe is impossible, I must be starting to make sense to you. Woot. to any being capable of logic, in any universe, an illogical (a universe where logic or mathematics may not be applied) universe should be inconceivable.

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(June 8, 2010 at 6:30 pm)fr0d0 Wrote:

(June 8, 2010 at 5:59 pm)Caecilian Wrote: However, its quite another matter to assume that such illogical universes are in fact impossible. Why should possible universes be limited to what humans can conceive of?

Humans didn't conceive of it they observed it... the logic of a functioning universe

To function at all requires some sustainable natural, to that universe, law.

maybe 'discovered' and 'verbalized' are more accurate words than 'observed' logics and mathematics *shrugs*. remember that this branch of posts all stemmed from my response that all universes are logical to you saying that a universe doesn't need to be logical if there are no life forms in it.

(June 6, 2010 at 10:37 pm)fr0d0 Wrote:

(June 6, 2010 at 7:16 pm)Caecilian Wrote: A universe consisting entirely of giant pink beachballs is logically possible. Its not nomologically possible, of course.

To be logically possible what we're talking about has to meet the requirements of sustaining life at least. Otherwise 'logical' doesn't meet it's requirements.

(June 8, 2010 at 2:25 am)The_Flying_Skeptic Wrote: it's easy to create new counting systems but they are just different ways to describe the same thing. like how a binary counting system may be translated to our base 10 counting system in our universe (see you don't even need to go to other universes to make new counting systems). you must be sleepy... 2 + 2 = 4 in a base 10 counting system in any universe. my example of you counting four fingers had nothing to do with your fingers but just you acknowledging 4 objects, no matter the counting system you choose.

It's easy to create arithmetic that is really different from common arithemetic. Modular arithmetic is an example. It 'wraps around' like clock counting. Base 10 however differs from base 2 only in phyrepresentation. So there is no necessary relation between arithmetic and physical reality. There is no rule that says things in other universes should be countable at all.

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(June 8, 2010 at 8:07 pm)Ramsin.Kh Wrote: All universes should be logical, because:
1) You enter any random universe.
2) You are taking place in that universe.
3) Therefore, space should exist for your entrance-possibility.

To say that all universes are logical means that any universe, even the ones you don't enter, must follow some internal logic. How do you manage to arrive at such a conclusion?

(June 8, 2010 at 8:39 pm)The_Flying_Skeptic Wrote: remember that this branch of posts all stemmed from my response that all universes are logical to you saying that a universe doesn't need to be logical if there are no life forms in it.

Yes I remember. That conclusion must've been a philosophical leap of faith on your part