(September 9, 2014 at 5:15 pm)Vicki Q Wrote:

(September 8, 2014 at 5:30 pm)StealthySkeptic Wrote: I don't think you're connecting God having a reason for not being obvious with the non-existence (in your opinion- one of the reasons I don't believe in Christianity is because nobody can get their opinion on basic doctrines straight) of Hell. God could easily be obvious, but not have Hell there at all.

I'm finding your first sentence rather hard to unravel. Perhaps I'm trying too hard to cancel two negatives at a time.

On the second sentence, I'm not sure how that would work. Whether or not Hell exists is beside the point- resurrected eternal life is on offer, and that is functionally equivalent to Hell as regards motivation.

I'm not sure that God putting up big notices saying “I made you, now please be nice to each other” while putting it out there falsely that there ain't nothing after death quite cuts the mustard. He could abolish post-mortem life, but I'd rather he didn't, personally.

And so if the reality of the situation is that there is a way of escaping death, but that decisions made impact on that escape route, then what is God to do? Be obvious (and we're a Stepford species) or approach it in a different, less obvious way?

What I never get is WHY Christianity claims that God being obvious would necessarily lead to us being a "Stepford species." After all, couldn't he make it so that we knew of his existence but had the ability to disobey? Isn't that what the Bible claims the Devil and his angels are able to do?

if a physical entity with the appearance of personhood were to materialize on the white house lawn and while saying “I’m God” (loud enough that it was recorded) levitated a foot above the ground, would that constitute proof that God is not hidden?
as the secret service approached, this entity asked one agent to place his hand onto the entity’s shoulder which the agent did thus making the entity to disappear. later, in the briefing, the agent said the shoulder garment felt ‘velvety’, anything else you noticed? ‘yes, as we approached this thing, there was an aroma of fruit, the closer we got the more pungent it become, much like orange blossoms’.
actually God reveals himself:
through nature --- for since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen.
through a person’s conscience - the spirit, or mind. the sense of right and wrong testifies.
scripture is the His revelation.
through the person of Jesus Christ.

(September 10, 2014 at 1:36 am)snowtracks Wrote: if a physical entity with the appearance of personhood were to materialize on the white house lawn and while saying “I’m God” (loud enough that it was recorded) levitated a foot above the ground, would that constitute proof that God is not hidden?
as the secret service approached, this entity asked one agent to place his hand onto the entity’s shoulder which the agent did thus making the entity to disappear. later, in the briefing, the agent said the shoulder garment felt ‘velvety’, anything else you noticed? ‘yes, as we approached this thing, there was an aroma of fruit, the closer we got the more pungent it become, much like orange blossoms’.
actually God reveals himself:
through nature --- for since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen.
through a person’s conscience - the spirit, or mind. the sense of right and wrong testifies.
scripture is the His revelation.
through the person of Jesus Christ.

That's just the claim that you're making without evidence. And your story doesn't make sense because an omnibenevolent, omnipotent, and omniscient god could make himself obvious to all without impinging free will. You cannot have that simultaneously has those three qualities without that, in my opinion.

(September 10, 2014 at 1:36 am)snowtracks Wrote: actually God reveals himself:
through nature --- for since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen.
through a person’s conscience - the spirit, or mind. the sense of right and wrong testifies.
scripture is the His revelation.
through the person of Jesus Christ.

But when objections are made to these --particularly the first three-- then the excuses, justifications, rationalizations, and complex interpretations begin.

God reveals his invisible attributes through nature? Then smallpox is evidence that he's a horrific, abusive monster.

God reveals himself through a person's conscience? Then Charles Manson is evidence that god is a ruthless, maniacal killer.

God reveals himself through scripture? Hang on, let me find a copy of The Odyssey. He might come out only slightly deranged in this one.

God reveals himself through the person of Jesus Christ? And where would this person happen to be, at the moment?

(September 10, 2014 at 1:36 am)snowtracks Wrote: if a physical entity with the appearance of personhood were to materialize on the white house lawn and while saying “I’m God” (loud enough that it was recorded) levitated a foot above the ground, would that constitute proof that God is not hidden?
as the secret service approached, this entity asked one agent to place his hand onto the entity’s shoulder which the agent did thus making the entity to disappear. later, in the briefing, the agent said the shoulder garment felt ‘velvety’, anything else you noticed? ‘yes, as we approached this thing, there was an aroma of fruit, the closer we got the more pungent it become, much like orange blossoms’.
actually God reveals himself:
through nature --- for since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen.
through a person’s conscience - the spirit, or mind. the sense of right and wrong testifies.
scripture is the His revelation.
through the person of Jesus Christ.

Nature is proof of nature. That is the only thing it is proof of. If you want to talk about trees being proof of a god, I can pull up a list of deities that have power over plant life and claim they all must exist.

My conscience is only proof of empathy. It is proof that I am a feeling person. Did god create a conscience within me that caused me to leave christianty because things within the bible don't sit well with my conscience?

(September 9, 2014 at 5:28 pm)StealthySkeptic Wrote: What I never get is WHY Christianity claims that God being obvious would necessarily lead to us being a "Stepford species."

To adapt a common sentence-

Responsibility for the information and views expressed in these posts are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect the official opinion of Christianity or God.

Quote: Isn't that what the Bible claims the Devil and his angels are able to do?

I couldn't comment on this as I lack the necessary knowledge. Even more so than usual.

Quote: After all, couldn't he make it so that we knew of his existence but had the ability to disobey?

Having knowledge of God, but choosing to disobey is pretty much the Bible in a sentence. From the story of Adam through the stories of Israel to the targets of the letter from James, people seem to struggle to connect knowledge of God with the need for obedience.

This remains the case today, where people with genuine beliefs make choices incompatible with those beliefs. It seems important to God that we have genuine choices, and I'm not at all sure that would be the case if God were in our faces all the time.

Quote:Having knowledge of God, but choosing to disobey is pretty much the Bible in a sentence.

Well, the first half of a summary sentence. The second half is the game changer.

(September 10, 2014 at 2:53 pm)Vicki Q Wrote:

(September 9, 2014 at 5:28 pm)StealthySkeptic Wrote: What I never get is WHY Christianity claims that God being obvious would necessarily lead to us being a "Stepford species."

To adapt a common sentence-

Responsibility for the information and views expressed in these posts are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect the official opinion of Christianity or God.

Quote: Isn't that what the Bible claims the Devil and his angels are able to do?

I couldn't comment on this as I lack the necessary knowledge. Even more so than usual.

Quote: After all, couldn't he make it so that we knew of his existence but had the ability to disobey?

Having knowledge of God, but choosing to disobey is pretty much the Bible in a sentence. From the story of Adam through the stories of Israel to the targets of the letter from James, people seem to struggle to connect knowledge of God with the need for obedience.

This remains the case today, where people with genuine beliefs make choices incompatible with those beliefs. It seems important to God that we have genuine choices, and I'm not at all sure that would be the case if God were in our faces all the time.

Quote:Having knowledge of God, but choosing to disobey is pretty much the Bible in a sentence.

Well, the first half of a summary sentence. The second half is the game changer.

So because the Bible says it's impossible for God to simultaneously be physically visible and allow for free will to occur, that means it is? Again, the Bible doesn't really lend any authority for me.

(September 10, 2014 at 1:57 am)StealthySkeptic Wrote:

(September 10, 2014 at 1:36 am)snowtracks Wrote: if a physical entity with the appearance of personhood were to materialize on the white house lawn and while saying “I’m God” (loud enough that it was recorded) levitated a foot above the ground, would that constitute proof that God is not hidden?
as the secret service approached, this entity asked one agent to place his hand onto the entity’s shoulder which the agent did thus making the entity to disappear. later, in the briefing, the agent said the shoulder garment felt ‘velvety’, anything else you noticed? ‘yes, as we approached this thing, there was an aroma of fruit, the closer we got the more pungent it become, much like orange blossoms’.
actually God reveals himself:
through nature --- for since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen.
through a person’s conscience - the spirit, or mind. the sense of right and wrong testifies.
scripture is the His revelation.
through the person of Jesus Christ.

That's just the claim that you're making without evidence. And your story doesn't make sense because an omnibenevolent, omnipotent, and omniscient god could make himself obvious to all without impinging free will. You cannot have that simultaneously has those three qualities without that, in my opinion.

the 'story' gives the naturalist, materialist even more five senses (physical) evidence than just the heavens and the earth. now for sure they must know God is not hidden.

Honestly if someone beamed down on the lawn of the White House and claimed they're god, I'd have quite a few questions to ask him before I concluded that he was god. Even then, how could I possibly qualify or disqualify him as actually being THE god of the universe, and not just an alien that knows its' metaphysics?

Ok, let's entertain the notion that "God" is not hidden. So where is it? Give me something I can point to and compare against non-god things.