Once upon a time I was a pretty hard core, professional airplane driver. Recurrent simulator training always ran a couple of scenarios based on fatal crashes, usually down burst encounters.

I learn from religion in just the same way we learned from those sim sessions ...

This is how NOT to do it.

The original message of what religion? If anything Christianity and Judaism have actually gotten better over time. The original message in the old testament was Xenophobia, Moral superiority, shunning of the Other. Maybe some of those things you said as well, but to say it's the original message of 'religion' without going into some specifics is disingenuous.

(September 18, 2014 at 10:43 pm)Celestine Wrote: Reflection, Sacrifice, Charity, Abstinence! Endurance, Compassion, Courage, Wisdom! All wasted! The message lost, what a tragedy! Misplaced by fools replaced by scum!

Sin, Forgiveness! What wonderful concepts if only implemented correctly!

Recitation of these virtues what the world would have become! Wasted on the veneration of deities when the veneration should be of these virtues!

You know now what religion is, this deformed beast of Baal, but you know not what it hides in its ruin!

This is the treasure more valuable than ivory, more valuable than an earth filled with gold! Yet you would forsake it? I think not!

The original messages? How do you know - were you there?

(September 18, 2014 at 11:08 pm)Celestine Wrote:

(September 18, 2014 at 11:00 pm)Chad32 Wrote: Religion has become a perverted beast, unfortunately.

Quite so, but I believe we can still learn from it.

Perhaps, but many other things, like the Ebola virus, promise greater returns and less lasting collateral damage for the same amount of learning effort.

Both Ebola and religion kills lots of people, spread terror and fear, and purely incidentally inculcates a little about compassion. The difference is the fear Ebola spreads isn't a scam, and Ebola wasn't designed by an intelligent designer to cheat, deceive, kill, and take credit for all unintended consequences.

(September 19, 2014 at 12:08 am)CapnAwesome Wrote: The original message of what religion? If anything Christianity and Judaism have actually gotten better over time. The original message in the old testament was Xenophobia, Moral superiority, shunning of the Other. Maybe some of those things you said as well, but to say it's the original message of 'religion' without going into some specifics is disingenuous.

And let's nor forget Sexism.

(September 18, 2014 at 10:43 pm)Celestine Wrote: Reflection, Sacrifice, Charity, Abstinence! Endurance, Compassion, Courage, Wisdom! All wasted! The message lost, what a tragedy! Misplaced by fools replaced by scum!

Sin, Forgiveness! What wonderful concepts if only implemented correctly!

Recitation of these virtues what the world would have become! Wasted on the veneration of deities when the veneration should be of these virtues!

You know now what religion is, this deformed beast of Baal, but you know not what it hides in its ruin!

This is the treasure more valuable than ivory, more valuable than an earth filled with gold! Yet you would forsake it? I think not!

Religion started when the first con man met the first sucker.

(September 19, 2014 at 12:40 am)Zidneya Wrote:

(September 19, 2014 at 12:08 am)CapnAwesome Wrote: The original message of what religion? If anything Christianity and Judaism have actually gotten better over time. The original message in the old testament was Xenophobia, Moral superiority, shunning of the Other. Maybe some of those things you said as well, but to say it's the original message of 'religion' without going into some specifics is disingenuous.

And let's nor forget Sexism.

Right, and for Muslims, Orthodox Jews and Conservative Christians that is largely unchanged.

(September 18, 2014 at 10:43 pm)Celestine Wrote: Reflection, Sacrifice, Charity, Abstinence! Endurance, Compassion, Courage, Wisdom! All wasted! The message lost, what a tragedy! Misplaced by fools replaced by scum!

Sin, Forgiveness! What wonderful concepts if only implemented correctly!

Recitation of these virtues what the world would have become! Wasted on the veneration of deities when the veneration should be of these virtues!

You know now what religion is, this deformed beast of Baal, but you know not what it hides in its ruin!

This is the treasure more valuable than ivory, more valuable than an earth filled with gold! Yet you would forsake it? I think not!

Morality came before religion but religion coopted it.

Quote:Reflection, Sacrifice, Charity, Abstinence! Endurance, Compassion, Courage, Wisdom! All wasted! The message lost, what a tragedy! Misplaced by fools replaced by scum!

Reflection that people are scum and the gods get the goodies.

Sacrifice? Blood-soaked altars.

Charity given to the priest class, with the givers left to fend for themselves.

Abstinence, the primary functions of which to 1) make sure that people were afraid of sex and 2) ensure that women retained their status as chattel for as long as possible.

Endurance, in a religious context, means to simply belt up and accept your lot in life, because 'better days are coming'.

Compassion? As an original message of religion? WHERE?

Courage isn't a religious virtue, never has been. I agree to the extent that courage is the compliment of fear, but religions have always prayed on fear, and have never, EVER held courage up as a virtue.

Wisdom? Please. 'This you may not see. This you may not read. This you must not think. This you are forbidden to know,' could easily have been the mantra of every religion ever dreamed up by people too lazy to actually work for a living.

These messages 'lost' you say? I only hope that they will be.

Quote:Sin, Forgiveness! What wonderful concepts if only implemented correctly!

AKA 'guilt, recrimination, abject surrender.' The notion that an imagined celestial being has to forgive your transgressions against other human beings is anathema to good sense.

Quote:Recitation of these virtues what the world would have become! Wasted on the veneration of deities when the veneration should be of these virtues!

But the recitation of your supposed 'virtues', as religious virtues, is directly responsible for the world being the lousy, tawdry, fucked up place that it is.

Quote: You know now what religion is, this deformed beast of Baal, but you know not what it hides in its ruin!

Don't presume to tell me what I know or don't know. Arrogant twat.

Quote:This is the treasure more valuable than ivory, more valuable than an earth filled with gold! Yet you would forsake it? I think not!

The things you listed are not treasures, they are dross. What is valuable is human beings valuing other human beings. Until religion fully, truly grasps what it means to 'Do as you would be done by' - and puts it into practice as part and parcel of religious belief, instead of merely paying it anemic lip service -, you can take your respect for religion, fold it until it is all corners, and shove it.

Boru

(September 18, 2014 at 10:43 pm)Celestine Wrote: Sin, Forgiveness! What wonderful concepts if only implemented correctly!

Some have the temerity to say the same thing about Soviet style communism; "if only done properly next time".

The idea of original sin is perhaps the most psychologically damaging and cruelly manipulative idea ever foisted on our species. Other means of control require coercion, but this bit of fantasy actually gets people to accept unprovable premises in order to have them voluntarily relinquish behavioral decision making.

Fuck religion.