(September 20, 2014 at 9:52 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: I think the whole thing with will of God is just humans theists trying to impose morals.

(original quote altered)

NOW, you know why we're not always 'humble'.

(September 20, 2014 at 9:05 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: But what makes no sense is to assume others don't have any good reason to believe in God or there is no merit to faith.

Like?
No seriously I want an example.
Name me a good deed that atheist can do thanks to their faith that an atheist can't?

(September 20, 2014 at 9:05 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: This is taking a step further. You would have to either prove there is no God or that if there is a God, he has not made himself known to anyone.

There is no God.
That which can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence

(September 20, 2014 at 9:05 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: Therefore it is more reasonable that Atheists take a more humble approach to their Atheism, that they simply state this is the position they take, but they don't necessarily condemn the Theistic position.

You do realize that most of the theistic positions objective is to convert others to their theistic position, right?

(September 20, 2014 at 9:55 pm)Rhythm Wrote:

(September 20, 2014 at 9:46 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: But the Atheist position is not that there is no God. It's that they don't believe in God. So from this stance, you would have to either claim:

1) God doesn't exist
2) If he exists, he has not made himself known to anyone.

And if you want to remain logical, you would have to prove these.

You forgot a third option. God is a character in a book. I can prove that to you anytime you'd like. While my position is not the position of every atheist, the claim of knowledge is not the position of every theist. Nevertheless, there are theists and atheists who are comfortable making a claim of knowledge. You invoked one side of that coin in your statements - and then tried to compare that apple to an orange in the next line. It doesn't make any sense at all to keep my mind open about whether or not a character contained in a narrative jumped out and had a discussion with -anyone-. There's nothing humble in keeping my mind open to that - incredibly ignorant, sure, humble...not even close.

The legitimacy of an experience and the legitimacy of a claim -beyond that experience- are entirely separate issues. An often used example is alien abduction. Those people have clearly had a "legitimate experience" - that doesn't mean that aliens abducted them.

I am making generalizations. Most Theists claim their faith is a sort of mystical knowledge of God. Although they may not be certain and be agnostic, they do claim it's a way of knowing God exists.

And most Atheists claim they don't know whether or not God exists, and don't take a stance.

So I'm going with the two general point of views.

---

(September 20, 2014 at 10:02 pm)ShaMan Wrote:

(September 20, 2014 at 9:52 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: I think the whole thing with will of God is just humans theists trying to impose morals.

(original quote altered)

NOW, you know why we're not always 'humble'.

No I think it's humans. I suspect people like Baha'allah didn't actually believe in God when he wrote his book. I wouldn't believe in an ultimate being and then go on making up words he said and forging a lie on him. I would think these founders of religions were more Atheistic. Others that followed were more theistic. But when people forge a religion and make one up, I would think they were more on the side of not believing and not actually worshiping like they wanted others to do.

(September 20, 2014 at 10:05 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: So I'm going with the two general point of views.

Except that the atheist position says "live and let live" whereas, the theist position is generally "believe as I believe or die."

They are not simply two opposing views, one (atheism), is accepting, where the other (theism), is oppressive and controlling.

(September 20, 2014 at 10:12 pm)ShaMan Wrote: whereas, the theist position is generally "believe as I believe or die."

Which religions teach that?

(September 20, 2014 at 10:14 pm)MysticKnight Wrote:

(September 20, 2014 at 10:12 pm)ShaMan Wrote: whereas, the theist position is generally "believe as I believe or die."

Which religions teach that?

Islam
Christianity
Catholicism

To name three (with the same god).

(September 20, 2014 at 10:14 pm)MysticKnight Wrote:

(September 20, 2014 at 10:12 pm)ShaMan Wrote: whereas, the theist position is generally "believe as I believe or die."

Which religions teach that?

KORAN commands to kill infidels:

Allah is an enemy to unbelievers. - Sura 2:98
On unbelievers is the curse of Allah. - Sura 2:161
Slay them wherever ye find them and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter. - 2:191
Fight against them until idolatry is no more and Allah's religion reigns supreme. Sura 2:193 and 8:39
Fighting is obligatory for you, much as you dislike it. - 2:216


The Bible:
Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel. (Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT)
You should not let a sorceress live. (Exodus 22:17 NAB)
Whoever sacrifices to any god, except the Lord alone, shall be doomed. (Exodus 22:19 NAB)
They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB)
Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors. "The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him." (Deuteronomy 13:13-19 NLT)


Do you want more examples?

(September 20, 2014 at 10:19 pm)ShaMan Wrote:

(September 20, 2014 at 10:14 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: Which religions teach that?

Islam
Christianity
Catholicism

To name three (with the same god).

I don't know too much about the Bible, but I know Quran teaches freedom of religion. There is even a verse that talks about people leaving the religion and says as long as they are not fighting against you and want peace, to let then be and that there is no way against them. There is other verses that talk about there being no force in religion and saying that Mohammad is not a imposer upon them (the exact Arabic word is musaytar).

However obviously there are extremists who ignore these verses and impose an interpretation of Islam that is very violent.

(September 20, 2014 at 10:00 pm)MysticKnight Wrote:

(September 20, 2014 at 9:55 pm)tjakey Wrote: I rarely try to talk people out of their theistic positions. This in spite of the fact that theists are constantly trying to force their particular theistic ideology on others. So, for the most part, I think the basic tenet of this thread is false. It isn't atheists who are taking the heads off of infidels, who want to impose their ideology on those who work for us, or who are denying pretty basic scientific observations because they clash with our world view or faith. That is the exclusive territory of the believer.

I think atheists have been pretty tolerant of the evils perpetrated on the world by the theists. We are not burning down churches, calling for the assassination of religious leaders, destroying priceless artifacts, condemning women to servant status, or hounding gay people with prison sentences and beatings. There are some rare moments when I wonder just why we are being so passive. Then I remember, in the human race the believers outnumber the non-believers by a factor of, at least, 50 to 1.

The fucked up world we live in is being fucked up by believers. Yet they think outspoken atheists as the problem. Amazing.

I wasn't comparing Atheists to Theists. I don't know why you are.

You are suggesting that atheist take a "more humble" approach to theists. I am suggesting that, perhaps, we are already taking too humble an approach and should step up our game.

(September 20, 2014 at 10:23 pm)Zidneya Wrote: KORAN commands to kill infidels:

So it allows you to marry Christians and Jews but commands you to kill them as well?