(September 22, 2014 at 2:02 pm)Rogue Wrote:

(September 22, 2014 at 11:31 am)Rhythm Wrote: I'll take the third option - that jesus simply wasn't. As such he didn't die to save us from sin -or- religion, and should we desire salvation from either (in however stretched a form you take either concept) - no hero is required. I would actually propose that such a hero would interfere with that salvation, not facilitate or accomplish it.

So you would like to live under Moses's Laws? I understand. Yes eye for an eye is much better than Love thy neighbors. Gotcha.

Is there an award for "fastest to strawman an argument"?

(September 22, 2014 at 1:27 pm)C4RM5 Wrote: Chuck, I was stating my beliefs not facts.

I wish all Xtians could distinguish the difference between their beliefs and facts.

(September 22, 2014 at 11:31 am)Rhythm Wrote: I'll take the third option - that jesus simply wasn't. As such he didn't die to save us from sin -or- religion, and should we desire salvation from either (in however stretched a form you take either concept) - no hero is required. I would actually propose that such a hero would interfere with that salvation, not facilitate or accomplish it.

There is evidence that he WAS. Most historians agree. There is a link if you want it.

Whether or not he was a god is debatable. I think the evidence says; no.

We will always need Heroes; if not shut down Law Enforcement, Firemen, Hospitals and military.

There is about as much evidence for King Arthur and his Knights or William Tell or Sping-eyed Jack as there is for Jesus.

Not very convincing.

(September 22, 2014 at 2:10 pm)Rogue Wrote: Whether or not he was a god is debatable.

(September 22, 2014 at 11:41 am)FatAndFaithless Wrote: Yeah I dunno why OP starts with the idea that Jesus was some sort of moral exemplary, or why we would even care that he "died to save us from religion".

Why don't you ask then?

The words "moral exemplary" was not mentioned in the OP. Only the difference of a deity dying and living again compared to a human body which stays dead.

Do you like religion F&F? If not that's why it matters to you and me. I do not like religion. Religion in my world is no better than a serial killer. It has taken the lives of billions and counting.

(September 22, 2014 at 2:42 pm)Rogue Wrote:

(September 22, 2014 at 11:41 am)FatAndFaithless Wrote: Yeah I dunno why OP starts with the idea that Jesus was some sort of moral exemplary, or why we would even care that he "died to save us from religion".

Why don't you ask then?

The words "moral exemplary" was not mentioned in the OP. Only the difference of a deity dying and living again compared to a human body which stays dead.

Do you like religion F&F? If not that's why it matters to you and me. I do not like religion. Religion in my world is no better than a serial killer. It has taken the lives of billions and counting.

Alright then, I'll ask you explicitly.

Quote:I believe Jesus was a man that laid his life down freely for the good of his people. This is a ultimate example of LOVE.

That's pretty high praise for someone that may or may not have existed, and certainly never did any of the things that his fanclub attributes to him (miracles, healing the sick, dying for our sins, etc). If he's not divine, not a messiah, not some sort of God-child, then he was just one of many mistaken tribal mystic leaders that have been killed throughout world history. How can you say he "laid down his life" in an expression of 'ultimate love', when his circumstances weren't any different than thousands of other cult leaders who've been executed? Why start with those assumptions? Additionally, I have no idea where you're getting the idea that Jesus was anti-religion (and even if he was, why would we care if he's just another man?).

And I'll let you conclude for yourself whether or not I like religion.

(September 22, 2014 at 11:56 am)JesusHChrist Wrote: The good of his people? The people who were subsequently ass-kicked by the Romans?

You start off stating a belief and then go on to state beliefs are a reflection of the believer (which is certainly true).

The same Romans that eventually became the pillar of Christianity? Yes that would be the ones.

(September 22, 2014 at 11:56 am)JesusHChrist Wrote: How do you know your belief means anything other than listening to yourself in an echo chamber?

I don't have an echo chamber.

Beliefs impact society. Mine is the least harmful around. In fact mine is used for healing in hospitals all around the world. Is yours?

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Quote:There is evidence that he WAS. Most historians agree. There is a link if you want it.

Oh, fuck...not this tired old canard again.

Where is the evidence for it? Because after all is said and done it always comes back to the fucking gospel accounts which are not "historical" documents.

The reason many scholars agreed is that they were xtian fuckheads themselves. You have to approach this horseshit without belief or you quickly lose yourself in the pit of jesus-freak bullshit.

(September 22, 2014 at 2:52 pm)Rogue Wrote: Beliefs impact society. Mine is the least harmful around. In fact mine is used for healing in hospitals all around the world. Is yours?

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No matter how wacky the belief, medicine, if practiced correctly is based on hard science, not 1,000 hands clasped in prayer, doing jackshit when someone has a bacterial infection.

You are conflating the an alleged humanitarian impulse to do good with the results achieved.

Think of how many of the faithful attempted to cure diseases (and failed miserably) before the advent of modern medicine.

Medicine + Faith = Medicine + 0

Faith is worthless.