No thanks Chas. I'm used to being strawmanned by theists, but I'm not in the mood for it here.

(October 2, 2014 at 1:13 pm)Bibliofagus Wrote: Does it make a difference if the culture the woman lives in keeps pressuring her to keep the child?

I don't see how that is pertinent to the discussion.

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(October 2, 2014 at 1:23 pm)FatAndFaithless Wrote: No thanks Chas. I'm used to being strawmanned by theists, but I'm not in the mood for it here.

It's not a strawman. You have clearly stated that you put a woman's right to control her body, after having sufficient time to make a decision, above a human life.

What other 'rights' are above the right to life?

Since you have given no argument as to why you believe that, I conclude it is ideological.

(October 2, 2014 at 1:23 pm)Chas Wrote:

(October 2, 2014 at 1:13 pm)Bibliofagus Wrote: Does it make a difference if the culture the woman lives in keeps pressuring her to keep the child?

I don't see how that is pertinent to the discussion.

Well. You said she had had 8 months already to abort, so she should just put up and shut up in a way after that.

So I'd like to know if it matters to you if she was pressurised into keeping the baby during said 8 months.

Yes, Chas, you can say that I have the 'ideology' that a woman's bodily autonomy is the most important right at any time, regardless of situation. You said that I "consider human life disposable", which is one hell of a strawman.

(October 2, 2014 at 1:32 pm)FatAndFaithless Wrote: Yes, Chas, you can say that I have the 'ideology' that a woman's bodily autonomy is the most important right at any time, regardless of situation. You said that I "consider human life disposable", which is one hell of a strawman.

No, I pointed out that you considered the viable fetus disposable when compared to the the woman's bodily autonomy, not "regardless of situation".
I then asked when else you thought a human life was disposable. No strawmen in there anywhere.

(October 2, 2014 at 11:31 am)Chas Wrote:

(October 2, 2014 at 8:53 am)Losty Wrote: I don't think you're getting it. I didn't say a fetus is a person. I said it doesn't matter if the fetus is a person or not. People do not have this right so a fetus (regardless if whether or not it's a person) does not have that right either.

No, you are not getting it. At some point during pregnancy, the fetus becomes viable. At that point it is another human being and has rights, too.

Is it OK for a woman to abort 1 hour before delivery? 1 day? 1 week?
When?

I don't think any forms of abortion should be illegal. I think women should be strongly encouraged to give birth to viable fetuses so long as their life is not in danger. I do not, however, believe that they should be forced to do so.

Quote:

(October 2, 2014 at 9:00 am)FatAndFaithless Wrote: Agreed. One of the big things I hear is about how a fetus is a person and how it deserves human rights. Fine, give it all the rights of any person in the US. There is no person in the country that can be forced by law to donate an organ, be the dialysis machine, or the the life support system of another human. Nobody has the legal right to use another person's body for survival without their consent, and neither does any fetus.

That is absurd 'logic'. The fetus is not making a choice. It is helpless and not responsible for even its existence.

Is your argument that a fetus may be aborted right up to the moment of birth?

Should be, no. May be, yes.
I will say for I think the millionth time (not to you my sweet chas but just in general), there's no point in discussing late term abortions. Less than 2% of abortions are late term. If we had real sex education and easy affordable access to birth control and early term abortions, late term abortions would be almost completely eliminated outside of emergency situations where the mother's life is at risk.

(October 2, 2014 at 1:37 pm)Chas Wrote:

(October 2, 2014 at 1:32 pm)FatAndFaithless Wrote: Yes, Chas, you can say that I have the 'ideology' that a woman's bodily autonomy is the most important right at any time, regardless of situation. You said that I "consider human life disposable", which is one hell of a strawman.

No, I pointed out that you considered the viable fetus disposable when compared to the the woman's bodily autonomy, not "regardless of situation".
I then asked when else you thought a human life was disposable. No strawmen in there anywhere.

Whatever chas. I don't consider human life 'disposable', despite what you say. I hold the woman's right to bodily autonomy as the priority, regardless of situation. Call it what you want.

(October 2, 2014 at 1:29 pm)Bibliofagus Wrote:

(October 2, 2014 at 1:23 pm)Chas Wrote: I don't see how that is pertinent to the discussion.

Well. You said she had had 8 months already to abort, so she should just put up and shut up in a way after that.

So I'd like to know if it matters to you if she was pressurised into keeping the baby during said 8 months.

I'm sure it matters to her.
But that is not relevant to what we as a society determine are the boundaries of human life and the balance of rights.

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(October 2, 2014 at 1:39 pm)FatAndFaithless Wrote:

(October 2, 2014 at 1:37 pm)Chas Wrote: No, I pointed out that you considered the viable fetus disposable when compared to the the woman's bodily autonomy, not "regardless of situation".
I then asked when else you thought a human life was disposable. No strawmen in there anywhere.

Whatever chas. I don't consider human life 'disposable', despite what you say. I hold the woman's right to bodily autonomy as the priority, regardless of situation. Call it what you want.

I call it libertarian bullshit.

The basic right upon which all other rights are contingent is the right to life.

(October 2, 2014 at 1:38 pm)Losty Wrote:

(October 2, 2014 at 11:31 am)Chas Wrote: No, you are not getting it. At some point during pregnancy, the fetus becomes viable. At that point it is another human being and has rights, too.

Is it OK for a woman to abort 1 hour before delivery? 1 day? 1 week?
When?

I don't think any forms of abortion should be illegal. I think women should be strongly encouraged to give birth to viable fetuses so long as their life is not in danger. I do not, however, believe that they should be forced to do so.

Quote:That is absurd 'logic'. The fetus is not making a choice. It is helpless and not responsible for even its existence.

Is your argument that a fetus may be aborted right up to the moment of birth?

Should be, no. May be, yes.
I will say for I think the millionth time (not to you my sweet chas but just in general), there's no point in discussing late term abortions. Less than 2% of abortions are late term. If we had real sex education and easy affordable access to birth control and early term abortions, late term abortions would be almost completely eliminated outside of emergency situations where the mother's life is at risk.

Agreed.

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(October 2, 2014 at 1:39 pm)Chas Wrote: I call it libertarian bullshit.

The basic right upon which all other rights are contingent is the right to life.

Sure, but not "the right to life at the involuntary expense of another human's body"

(September 20, 2014 at 10:56 am)TheGamingAtheist Wrote: Holy shit... I thought this thread died.lol

This thread needs to be aborted. What were you thinking birthing this thing?