You're defending a three storey universe. There is no up and down in the universe we live in. It is as simple as that. If the quran defends that, we're done here.

(June 27, 2010 at 3:40 pm)Purple Rabbit Wrote: You're defending a three storey universe. There is no up and down in the universe we live in. It is as simple as that. If the quran defends that, we're done here.

Well from what i read in wikipedia the Qu'ran allows to beat women with sticks the size of toothbrush and only on the hands, men that do otherwise are considered bad husbands

(June 27, 2010 at 4:52 pm)Ashendant Wrote:

(June 27, 2010 at 3:40 pm)Purple Rabbit Wrote: You're defending a three storey universe. There is no up and down in the universe we live in. It is as simple as that. If the quran defends that, we're done here.

Well from what i read in wikipedia the Qu'ran allows to beat women with sticks the size of toothbrush and only on the hands, men that do otherwise are considered bad husbands

Well, that's a coincidence that you mention the quran and wikipedia in one sentence, for it seems that the quran invented the wikipedia concept also. The first version of the quran was written on small stones, pieces of leather and wood, bones and similar things and were collected from many followers. So like Wikipedia all could contribute to 100% guaranteed absolute truth in quran. It's a pitty that all of those pieces of the quran were burnt though.

(June 27, 2010 at 4:52 pm)Ashendant Wrote: Well from what i read in wikipedia the Qu'ran allows to beat women with sticks the size of toothbrush and only on the hands, men that do otherwise are considered bad husbands

Of course, there wouldn't have been any toothbrushes back then, so I wonder what the Qur'an's measurements are. 'You must beat your lowly subservient wives with sticks of at least 6 inches by 1/2 an inch. Any more than would be cruel, you mean bastard.' Or maybe toothbrushes in the old days, just as mobile phones used to be bigger, were the size of tree trunks. That seems more realistic.

That's just the Qur'an for you, though. You wouldn't catch the Bible allowing people to beat their slaves for instance (cough... Exodus 21:21... cough... ahem. Sorry about that).

(June 27, 2010 at 3:40 pm)Purple Rabbit Wrote: You're defending a three storey universe. There is no up and down in the universe we live in. It is as simple as that. If the quran defends that, we're done here.

if you are on earth and something come from space would you say no its not sent down the space has no up and down??

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Quote:Well, that's a coincidence that you mention the quran and wikipedia in one sentence, for it seems that the quran invented the wikipedia concept also. The first version of the quran was written on small stones, pieces of leather and wood, bones and similar things and were collected from many followers. So like Wikipedia all could contribute to 100% guaranteed absolute truth in quran. It's a pitty that all of those pieces of the quran were burnt though.

http://atheistforums.org/thread-3863.html

(June 27, 2010 at 4:52 pm)Ashendant Wrote: Well from what i read in wikipedia the Qu'ran allows to beat women with sticks the size of toothbrush

(June 27, 2010 at 2:22 pm)mo3taz3nbar Wrote:

(June 27, 2010 at 10:30 am)Dotard Wrote:

(June 27, 2010 at 8:22 am)mo3taz3nbar Wrote: lol no am not doing this but in the Quran if something is formed on earth it says created or formed not sent down ...

Iron is formed in the earth. There is also meteoric iron which was known about way before mohammend walked the earth.

am not talking about meteoric iron am talking about the source of iron in earth from the begining

Generations of stars were born in gas clouds and died in explosive novas. The conditions in those novas produced the heavier elements we have with us today.
http://geology.about.com/od/nutshells/a/...hbirth.htm

Which has nothing to do with the Quran.

(June 28, 2010 at 4:01 am)mo3taz3nbar Wrote:

(June 27, 2010 at 3:40 pm)Purple Rabbit Wrote: You're defending a three storey universe. There is no up and down in the universe we live in. It is as simple as that. If the quran defends that, we're done here.

if you are on earth and something come from space would you say no its not sent down the space has no up and down??

First, are you arguing that at the time of earth formation there was someone on earth?

Second, since special relativity (btw where is that in your little book?) has been empirically verified it is clear that there is no preferred frame of reference in spacetime. IOW, there is no up and down. If anything is strikingly clear about the astronomical knowledge in both quran and bible it is that they are full with this three storey universe shit. This is what is to be expected when you realize they were written by peasants in a time when nobody knew better and the general view was that heaven and earth were completely seperate realms with their own laws. We owe the idea that heaven is somewhere "up there" and earth "here below" to this fact. In fact for this reason in bible and quran heaven as the supernatural realm coincides with heaven as the astronomical realm. Since Galileo and Newton we know better. To not credit this fact and yet at the same time bend a few vague lines into a theory of earth formation is a staggering example of how faith deludes the mind.

(June 28, 2010 at 4:01 am)mo3taz3nbar Wrote:

Quote:Well, that's a coincidence that you mention the quran and wikipedia in one sentence, for it seems that the quran invented the wikipedia concept also. The first version of the quran was written on small stones, pieces of leather and wood, bones and similar things and were collected from many followers. So like Wikipedia all could contribute to 100% guaranteed absolute truth in quran. It's a pitty that all of those pieces of the quran were burnt though.

http://atheistforums.org/thread-3863.html

Among the things you refer to there is this:
"6-When do people start changing the religious books:

1-when it does not contain their claims or doctorines"

This just says it all. The quran is mallaeable to doctrines of man not the word of god.

i think when we talk about the scientific facts in the Quran in more details it will be more clear to you.if you dont think saying sent down iron and not saying that is was formed or created on earth mean something(they didnt know anything about how materials come to earth the default thing is to say it was formed on earth they were not astronomers) when talking about different things in universe in Quran it will give you more understanding about how the Quran talk about universe and that the image of the universe is the same as was discovered these days

Quote:Among the things you refer to there is this:
"6-When do people start changing the religious books:

1-when it does not contain their claims or doctorines"

This just says it all. The quran is mallaeable to doctrines of man not the word of god.

i meant that the doctrines or beliefs must be in the scripture itself if it is not people will start to ask from where you get what you are saying and this is when people start to change in their scriptures and it will never stop each time they find that there is a claim about their scripture they will start changing and adding(plz take this to the thread preservation and authenticity of he Quran as its not the subject here)

(June 29, 2010 at 4:36 am)mo3taz3nbar Wrote: i think when we talk about the scientific facts in the Quran in more details it will be more clear to you.

That's not a response to my observation that the three storey universe is the model that shows everywhere in the quaran and bible. That's like saying, "you're right but I'll convince you later" and completely ignore these facts that are so flagrantly unscientific.

Also the quran endorses flat earth:
"And Allah has made the earth for you as a carpet (spread out)" quran surah 71:19
"And He it is Who has outstretched the earth, and placed on it tthe firm mountains" quran surah 13:3
"He who has made for you the earth like a carpet has enabled you to go about therein by roads (and channels) and has sent down water from the sky. With it have We produced diverse pairs of plants each separate" quran surah 20:5
"By the heaven and That which built it and by the earth and That which extended it" quran surah 91:5-6

So the earth according to quran is a flat pancake in a three storey universe.

But this was 600 AD. It was the dark middle ages, they had no clue at all about the findings of modern science. If there really was science than there would have been the brilliant symmetrical principles of nature like that of relativity. They're totally absent. So don't stretch your luck with dubious interpretation of vague sentences scribbled on all kinds of material by various followers deleted from historical reference that are said to reference to scientific facts only after science has stated them.

(June 29, 2010 at 4:36 am)mo3taz3nbar Wrote: if you dont think saying sent down iron and not saying that is was formed or created on earth mean something(they didnt know anything about how materials come to earth the default thing is to say it was formed on earth they were not astronomers) when talking about different things in universe in Quran it will give you more understanding about how the Quran talk about universe and that the image of the universe is the same as was discovered these days

You are making all kinds of hilarious assumptions on earth formation:

- That first there was an earth without iron and later the iron was added. That is not scientific fact, it opposes any serious scientific theory on earth formation.

- That an up down perspective is relevant to earth formation. The only relevant sense of direction is that of
the plain of rotation of the solar system when it formed.

Also you seem to add in the disclaimer that they didn't know how to write it down because they had no reference from experience. Of course that is true, but with that you are seriously discrediting the divine inspiration clause that believers use all the time to "ensure" circular reasoning. I've studied astronomy and I cannot be clear enough about it: there is no astronomy in the quran!

(June 29, 2010 at 4:36 am)mo3taz3nbar Wrote:

Quote:Among the things you refer to there is this:
"6-When do people start changing the religious books:

1-when it does not contain their claims or doctorines"

This just says it all. The quran is mallaeable to doctrines of man not the word of god.

i meant that the doctrines or beliefs must be in the scripture itself if it is not people will start to ask from where you get what you are saying and this is when people start to change in their scriptures and it will never stop each time they find that there is a claim about their scripture they will start changing and adding(plz take this to the thread preservation and authenticity of he Quran as its not the subject here)

You are restating what I feared you meant: The quran is mallaeable to doctrines of man and not the word of god.