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October 18, 2014 at 3:39 am (This post was last modified: October 18, 2014 at 3:40 am by Mystical.)
(October 18, 2014 at 12:31 am)Vivalarevolution Wrote: Well I'm not reading all 19 pages of replies but I will try to answer your question.
Maybe you should read some of those replies, friend. Even the ones on the very last page.
Quote:We do not think the bible is entirely true. (Atleast us non- protestants) Far from it. We believe that it just narrates through mythology and real events how man came to understand god and how mankinds behaviour evolved.
Statement of beliefs, Christian majorit Wrote:The Faith and Practice
of the Protestant Reformed Churches in America
A Brief Statement of Doctrine, Confession and Practice
The Word of God calls believers to be "...ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear," I Peter 3:15. We, the Protestant Reformed Churches in America, take this calling of God's Word seriously. In this pamphlet we will attempt to give a reason of the hope that is within us. We will do that by explaining the origin of our churches and the basic doctrinal position of our churches.
HISTORICAL BACKGROUND
The Protestant Reformed Churches have their beginnings in 1924. However, they trace their spiritual lineage back to the apostles, whose doctrine is the foundation of the Christian church with Jesus Christ as the chief cornerstone (Eph. 2:20). The word "Protestant" in the name "Protestant Reformed" indicates a close adherence to the great Protestant Reformation of the 16th century. At that time the Protestant churches separated from the Roman Catholic Church in order to preserve the truth of the Word of God, as that truth had been brought to light especially through the labors of Martin Luther and John Calvin. The God-centered theology of the Reformation spread and developed in Europe with a power which can be attributed only to God. In the Low Countries this theology was systematized in three creeds, which became known as the Three Forms of Unity of the Reformed Churches: The Belgic Confession (1561), the Heidelberg Catechism (1563), and the Canons of Dordt (1618-1619). It is upon the basis of God's Word as interpreted by these creeds that the Protestant Reformed Churches stand. These creeds, which are the confession of the Reformed Churches of the past, are the spiritual heritage of the Protestant Reformed denomination.
Our small denomination has congregations in the United States and Canada. These churches not only preach the gospel in our established congregations, but also are diligent in the work of missions. We send out missionaries in North America as well as in Northern Ireland, Ghana, the Philippines, and Singapore. We maintain our own seminary for the training of prospective ministers of the gospel. The seminary faculty is made up of three full-time professors who teach the subjects of a four-year seminary program.
---BASIC BELIEFS---
A brief summary of the fundamental truths of God's infallible Word which are taught in the Protestant Reformed Churches here follows. Before that infallible Word the Protestant Reformed Churches bow, and by God's grace purpose to remain faithful. The summary is written to acquaint the interested and inquiring reader. We hope that you will desire to become better acquainted with us and that with us you will desire to follow the Lord Jesus Christ.
THE DOCTRINE OF GOD
We believe that there is only one, simple, spiritual Being Who is God (Deut. 6:4). He is the God of all perfections (e.g. sovereignty, omnipotence, independence). Though God is one in essence, He is distinguished in three Persons: God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit (Matthew 28:19; I Peter 1:2). These three Persons of the Divine Trinity are distinct, yet in all respects co-equal, co-eternal, and co-essential. All of our salvation is according to the will of and accomplished in the power of this Triune God (Eph. 1:3-7). To God alone is due all worship and honor.
THE BIBLE
We believe that God is known by means of the creation and preservation of the universe, by which all men know that God is and that He ought to be served (Romans 1:20). However, God makes Himself clearly and fully known as the God of all grace in Christ Jesus by His holy Word, the Bible, in which is revealed all that is necessary to us to know concerning His glory and our salvation (II Tim. 3:15-17). The Bible is inspired by the Holy Spirit and therefore is without error and is our only rule for faith and life (II Peter 1:20, 21; John 5:39).
CREATION AND PROVIDENCE
We believe that God created of nothing the universe and all creatures for His own glory (Rev. 4:11). By the infinite power and wisdom of His providence God still upholds and governs all things to His appointed end so that nothing happens by chance (Acts 17:24-28). His power and goodness are so great and incomprehensible that He orders and executes His work in the most excellent and just manner so that all things must serve His own glory and the salvation of His chosen people (Rom. 8:28; Eph. 1:10, 11).
MAN AND HIS FALL INTO SIN
We believe that God created man good and in His own image, and therefore capable of willing and doing the will of God (Gen. 1:27, 31). But man willfully disobeyed God, believed the lie of the Devil, and therefore became subject to death (Gen. 2:17; Rom. 5:12; 6:23). As a result, all men are conceived and born dead in trespasses and sins (Ps. 51:5; Eph. 2:1, 2). This is the truth of total depravity, which includes both imputed guilt and inherited corruption. Man has deprived himself of all his excellent gifts and is become wholly incapable of willing or doing any good and is inclined to all wickedness (Ps. 14:1; Rom. 8:7, 8; I Cor. 2:14, Eph. 2:1).
THE DOCTRINE OF PREDESTINATION
We believe that God has chosen in Christ out of the whole human race a people unto Himself (Eph. 1:4-6, 11; Rom. 8:29, 30). This election is grounded solely in God's good pleasure and not at all in man's works (II Tim. 1:9; Rom. 9:11). From God's purpose of election proceeds all the gifts of salvation, including faith itself (Acts 13:48; Eph. 2:8, 9). The Scriptures also teach very clearly the decree of reprobation whereby God appoints all others to everlasting damnation in the way of their own sin (Matt. 11:25-27; Rom. 9:11-13; II Thess. 2:11, 12; I Peter 2:8; II Peter 2:12). The assurance of election works humiliation before God and grateful adoration of His mercy.
JESUS THE CHRIST
We believe that our most gracious God, in harmony with His eternal purpose of love toward His people, sent His only begotten Son into our flesh, so that He became like us in all things, sin excepted (John 1:14; 3:16, 17; I Tim. 3:16). Jesus, having assumed our human nature in which sin was committed, satisfied the justice of God with respect to our sin and guilt by his most bitter suffering and death (Heb. 2:14-17; Gal. 3:13). His perfect death atoned for all the sins of all the elect only, thereby reconciling them to God in eternal fellowship and friendship (Matt. 1:21; II Cor. 5:18). This relationship of friendship which God establishes with His people in Christ is His covenant of grace (James 2:23; Gen. 17:7).
THE GOSPEL
We believe that the gospel is the good news of salvation in Jesus Christ. Christ Himself has called His church to preach this gospel to every creature (Mark 16:15). It is in the preaching of the gospel that Jesus Christ Himself calls men to repentance and faith (Luke 10:16; Acts 17:30; Eph. 4:21) It is through the preaching of the gospel that God works faith in the elect and strengthens and preserves that faith.
SALVATION
We believe that the salvation which Christ merited is applied to God's elect by the Holy Spirit and through the preaching of the Word. God does not offer salvation to the sinner, to be accepted or rejected through the exercise of his free will. But He powerfully works His promise in the elect. The Holy Spirit regenerates them, thereby enabling them by faith to participate in and enjoy eternal fellowship with God (Ezekiel 11:19; John 3:3, 8; II Cor. 2:14, 15). Thus the elect, regenerated man is brought by the Spirit to a consciousness of his sin and to faith in Jesus Christ as the only and complete Savior (Acts 13:48; 16:14).
True conversion is a sincere sorrow of heart for one's sin and a turning from sin; it is a sincere joy in God through Christ with love and delight to do God's will in all good works (Ps. 51:3, 8, 17; Rom. 5:1, 2; 8:10, 11).
Faith is the gift of the Holy Spirit of Christ to the elect believer (Eph. 2:8, 9; Acts 16:14). It is the bond that unites the elect, regenerated child of God to Christ, and in the power of this faith the believer receives the truth of the gospel, embraces Christ as His Savior, and receives all the blessings of salvation (John 1:12; 15:4, 5). By this faith in Christ the believer is justified before God apart from works (Rom. 3:24; 8:33, 34; Gal. 2:16).
The Holy Spirit also sanctifies the believer, causing him to grow in grace, knowledge, and in a life of good works. Though the Holy Spirit irresistibly sanctifies God's people in this life, perfection is not attained until the believer enters glory (II Thess. 2:13; II Peter 3:18; Eph. 2:10; Phil. 3:12).
The believer can neither totally nor finally fall from the state of grace into which he has been called, but shall certainly be preserved until he arrives at eternal glory. The security of the elect believer is because of God's unchangeable decree of election, His constant love, and finally because of the efficacy of Christ atonement and intercession (John 10:28, 29; I Peter 1:5, 9; Heb. 7:25).
THE CHURCH
We believe that the one, invisible Church of God consists of all the elect of God, gathered from the beginning to the end of the world, of which Jesus Christ is the Head (Eph. 1:22, 23). This Church is gathered out of all nations, yet is united by the power of the Spirit of Christ in one faith (Eph. 4:3, 4; Rev. 7:9). This invisible Church manifests itself as the gathering of believers and their children (I Cor. 1:2; Gen. 17:7). We believe that is the duty of every believer to unite himself with his children to that congregation which manifests the marks of the true Church of Jesus Christ in the world. These marks are three: the pure preaching of the Word, the proper administration of the sacraments, and the faithful exercise of Christian discipline (Acts 2:42; Heb. 10:25; Matt. 18:18; I Cor. 5:13). For the Church of God in the world Christ has ordained the offices of pastors, elders, and deacons. These officebearers represent Christ, the King of the Church, and govern His Church by His Word (Eph. 4:11, 12; I Tim. 3:1-13; 5:17). The faithful preaching of the gospel is Christ's means, both in the established church and on the mission fields, to gather and sustain His people in the faith (Matt. 28:18, 20; Acts 20:28).
THE SACRAMENTS
We believe that God, in order to strengthen our faith, has ordained the sacraments of holy baptism and the Lord's Supper. These sacraments are holy signs and seals whereby God signifies to us the death of Christ and seals to us the righteousness which is by faith (Rom. 4:11). In the New Dispensation baptism is a sign and seal of God's covenant of grace, as circumcision was in the Old Dispensation (Col. 2:11, 12). Since Christ shed His blood for the washing away of the sins of elect children no less than for elect adults, and because God gathers His people in the line of generations, the children of believers ought also to be baptized (Matt. 19:14; Gen. 17:7). We believe that the sacrament of the Lord's Supper signifies conscious fellowship by faith with Christ and seals the righteousness which is by faith in Him to the worthy partakers of this sacrament (I Cor. 10:16; Matt. 26:26-28).
THE CHRISTIAN LIFE
We believe that the Holy Spirit works in the child of God life-long gratitude to God for so great a salvation (Is. 43:21; Titus 2:14). Our gratitude to God is manifested in the daily crucifying of our old nature of sin and in the performance of every good work (John 15:4, 5). Our good works proceed out of a true and living faith, are in harmony with the law of God, and are performed to God's glory (Micah 6:8; Rom. 11:36; 14:23; I Cor. 10:31). The Scriptures teach the necessity of a God-centered life in every aspect of our earthly pilgrimage. We believe that the Scriptures teach that marriage is an unbreakable relationship between a man and his wife established by God, and that the children of believers are covenant blessings (Eph. 5:30, 31; Ps. 127:3). The Christian in his vocation must labor diligently and submissively, not as a menpleaser, but fearing God (Col. 3:22-25). The Christian is called to submit himself to the government of the land as the authority which is ordained by God (Rom. 13:1-7). And with regard to the Church, the believer is called to be zealous for God's cause, faithful in his worship attendance, and diligent to minister to his fellow saints.
THE FUTURE
We believe that although physical death is God's judgment upon sin, the sting of death is gone for the believer and death is the means by which God brings him immediately into conscious glory with Christ in heaven (Luke 23:43; I Cor. 15:55-57; II Cor. 5:8). The unbelieving and ungodly bear the punishment for their sin not only in this life and in death, but also forever in hell (Heb. 10:29, 30; Rev. 20:15).
We believe that the millennium is now, in which Christ exercises His Kingship in the preaching of the gospel and the gathering and preservation of His people. We reject the idea of a future earthly kingdom-reign of Christ in Jerusalem for 1000 years (John 12:31, 32; Rev. 20:11-15). We believe that at the second coming of Christ the bodies of all men will be raised out of the dead and re-united with their souls. All will then be judged according to their works and those saved in Christ will be partakers of Christ's life in eternal glory and those that have not believed will receive everlasting and just damnation (John 5:28, 29; II Cor. 5:10). We await that great day of Christ's return with a most ardent desire to the end that we may fully enjoy the promised fellowship with God in Christ Jesus our Lord.
There are the basic beliefs and teachings of the Protestant Reformed Churches in America.
vivalarevolution Wrote:First the behavior was perfect, then it degraded to a level where telling humans the importance of loving your neighbour just wasn't understandable.
How could creation be perfect if it was corruptible? Also how could Adam and eve be punished for sinning, when they didn't know right from wrong?
vivalarevolution Wrote:(This was before Romans gathered to see lions eat prisoners)
In a world where Child sacrifice and the likes were prevalent, man had no sense to treat everyone with respect. The world was barbaric, and to keep a country (Israel) pure and alive till the messiah arrived, it was necessary for rules to be set up so that they wouldn't do anything wrong.]
Have.. Have you read those rules?? How do you account for the 6 or so quotes by Jesus himself, upholding OT law to the end of days?
vivalarevolution Wrote:When the world's morality improved and people were able to understand Jesus' teachings of love and compassion (still note that this was while Romans gathered to see lions eat prisoners) god sent Jesus to explain it all to them.
Jesus himself called for children to be killed by their own ilk. Seems pretty comparable to me.
Vivalarevolution Wrote:Apart from that there are numerous prophecies in the bible which foretell the coming of Jesus. The fall of Tyre is one. The exile of the 10 tribes is another (It happened over 200 years) Read Isaiah and Eziekel
*insert real archaeology here
Read it.
vivalarevolution Wrote:We don't believe in the Adam and eve thing and the talking donkey and all. They are just stories to explain the situation of man at that particular point of time.
It's sad how such rigid beliefs tend to alienate people from Christianity
Its sad when people who aren't even true Christians believe they are because they haven't even read their own Bible, and judge others who have read it, for their non belief.
If I were to create self aware beings knowing fully what they would do in their lifetimes, I sure wouldn't create a HELL for the majority of them to live in infinitely! That's not Love, that's sadistic. Therefore a truly loving god does not exist!
Quote:The sin is against an infinite being (God) unforgiven infinitely, therefore the punishment is infinite.
Dead wrong. The actions of a finite being measured against an infinite one are infinitesimal and therefore merit infinitesimal punishment.
Quote:Some people deserve hell.
I say again: No exceptions. Punishment should be equal to the crime, not in excess of it. As soon as the punishment is greater than the crime, the punisher is in the wrong.
October 18, 2014 at 3:54 am (This post was last modified: October 18, 2014 at 4:23 am by Aractus.)
(October 18, 2014 at 3:39 am)Luckie Wrote: What on earth is a non protestant?
He's Orthodox. They have some of the looniest beliefs they are, and claim to be the one true Christian religion pre-dating Catholics and Protestants.
e.g. They don't believe in textual criticism or in other scholar discussions since "their beliefs have never, ever, changed".
Here's an example of this rampant stupidity with the MT:
Quote:It would seem that the Septuagint (LXX) translation is not only far more ancient than the Masoretic Text . . . the Septuagint is far more accurate as well. It is a more faithful representation of the original Hebrew Scriptures.
My God what idiots! It's like they deny the existence of 1Qlsa, which is radio-carbon and palaeographically dated to the 2nd century BC and is mostly letter-to-letter identical to the MT. There are a couple of small sections missing in 1Qlsa which are in the Lennigard Codex; however; those sections all exist in other DSS manuscripts (there are 20 or so Isaiah scrolls in total). No part of the Lennigard Codex's text was not found among the DSS.
For Religion & Health see:[/b][/size] Williams & Sternthal. (2007). Spirituality, religion and health: Evidence and research directions. Med. J. Aust., 186(10), S47-S50.-LINK
The WIN/Gallup End of Year Survey 2013 found the US was perceived to be the greatest threat to world peace by a huge margin, with 24% of respondents fearful of the US followed by: 8% for Pakistan, and 6% for China. This was followed by 5% each for: Afghanistan, Iran, Israel, North Korea.-LINK
"That's disgusting. There were clean athletes out there that have had their whole careers ruined by people like Lance Armstrong who just bended thoughts to fit their circumstances. He didn't look up cheating because he wanted to stop, he wanted to justify what he was doing and to keep that continuing on." - Nicole Cooke
Also Aractus your post is really interesting. Good research. I don't have time right now to reply to a post that enormous, but I'll try for one part-
1) I don't think the Israelites spoke hebrew while in Egypt. Furthermore Moses was raised in an Egyptian household. The earliest known hebrew writing dates from 1000 BC give or take a few years. (The gezer calendar)
2) Abraham wasn't native to Canaan. It's more likely he spoke and taught his children Sumerian or aramaic. Though we can be certain he could communicate with other Canaanites.
3) By the time of Jacobs 12 sons, they probably would've been speaking protosinaitic (90% of people don't know this word exists) and hence could make out what to say to Pharoah in authentic Egyptian.
4) when moses went for a total of 80 years out of Egypt he must have picked up certain words from the natives.
5) Abraham was called Hebrew because of his ancestor Eber. That's where the word hebrew came from. Not because of the language
6) when the hebrews settled in Canaan I doubt they'd speak Egyptian as fluently as their parents since they weren't born in Egypt. They'd probably have knowledge of local languages.
7) we don't know when the pentateuch was written. From Wikipedia, the torah has multiple authors and its composition took place over around 6 centuries but the "hebrew language" could very well be a mixture of the Canaanite, aramaic and proto sinaitic languages. Because languages change, by the time the torah was finally collected, it would have been closer to classical hebrew.
8) The first appearance of classical hebrew around 10th century BC fits perfectly with the Saul- David timeline
Oh. I'll have to redo my response, then. Hopefully they check out yours on the last page
Haven't you also done a breakdown of Tyre prophecy?
If I were to create self aware beings knowing fully what they would do in their lifetimes, I sure wouldn't create a HELL for the majority of them to live in infinitely! That's not Love, that's sadistic. Therefore a truly loving god does not exist!
Quote:The sin is against an infinite being (God) unforgiven infinitely, therefore the punishment is infinite.
Dead wrong. The actions of a finite being measured against an infinite one are infinitesimal and therefore merit infinitesimal punishment.
Quote:Some people deserve hell.
I say again: No exceptions. Punishment should be equal to the crime, not in excess of it. As soon as the punishment is greater than the crime, the punisher is in the wrong.
October 18, 2014 at 4:58 am (This post was last modified: October 18, 2014 at 5:01 am by Vivalarevolution.)
(October 18, 2014 at 3:39 am)Luckie Wrote:
(October 18, 2014 at 12:31 am)Vivalarevolution Wrote: Well I'm not reading all 19 pages of replies but I will try to answer your question.
Maybe you should read some of those replies, friend. Even the ones on the very last page.
Quote:We do not think the bible is entirely true. (Atleast us non- protestants) Far from it. We believe that it just narrates through mythology and real events how man came to understand god and how mankinds behaviour evolved.
Statement of beliefs, Christian majorit Wrote:The Faith and Practice
of the Protestant Reformed Churches in America
A Brief Statement of Doctrine, Confession and Practice
The Word of God calls believers to be "...ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear," I Peter 3:15. We, the Protestant Reformed Churches in America, take this calling of God's Word seriously. In this pamphlet we will attempt to give a reason of the hope that is within us. We will do that by explaining the origin of our churches and the basic doctrinal position of our churches.
HISTORICAL BACKGROUND
The Protestant Reformed Churches have their beginnings in 1924. However, they trace their spiritual lineage back to the apostles, whose doctrine is the foundation of the Christian church with Jesus Christ as the chief cornerstone (Eph. 2:20). The word "Protestant" in the name "Protestant Reformed" indicates a close adherence to the great Protestant Reformation of the 16th century. At that time the Protestant churches separated from the Roman Catholic Church in order to preserve the truth of the Word of God, as that truth had been brought to light especially through the labors of Martin Luther and John Calvin. The God-centered theology of the Reformation spread and developed in Europe with a power which can be attributed only to God. In the Low Countries this theology was systematized in three creeds, which became known as the Three Forms of Unity of the Reformed Churches: The Belgic Confession (1561), the Heidelberg Catechism (1563), and the Canons of Dordt (1618-1619). It is upon the basis of God's Word as interpreted by these creeds that the Protestant Reformed Churches stand. These creeds, which are the confession of the Reformed Churches of the past, are the spiritual heritage of the Protestant Reformed denomination.
Our small denomination has congregations in the United States and Canada. These churches not only preach the gospel in our established congregations, but also are diligent in the work of missions. We send out missionaries in North America as well as in Northern Ireland, Ghana, the Philippines, and Singapore. We maintain our own seminary for the training of prospective ministers of the gospel. The seminary faculty is made up of three full-time professors who teach the subjects of a four-year seminary program.
---BASIC BELIEFS---
A brief summary of the fundamental truths of God's infallible Word which are taught in the Protestant Reformed Churches here follows. Before that infallible Word the Protestant Reformed Churches bow, and by God's grace purpose to remain faithful. The summary is written to acquaint the interested and inquiring reader. We hope that you will desire to become better acquainted with us and that with us you will desire to follow the Lord Jesus Christ.
THE DOCTRINE OF GOD
We believe that there is only one, simple, spiritual Being Who is God (Deut. 6:4). He is the God of all perfections (e.g. sovereignty, omnipotence, independence). Though God is one in essence, He is distinguished in three Persons: God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit (Matthew 28:19; I Peter 1:2). These three Persons of the Divine Trinity are distinct, yet in all respects co-equal, co-eternal, and co-essential. All of our salvation is according to the will of and accomplished in the power of this Triune God (Eph. 1:3-7). To God alone is due all worship and honor.
THE BIBLE
We believe that God is known by means of the creation and preservation of the universe, by which all men know that God is and that He ought to be served (Romans 1:20). However, God makes Himself clearly and fully known as the God of all grace in Christ Jesus by His holy Word, the Bible, in which is revealed all that is necessary to us to know concerning His glory and our salvation (II Tim. 3:15-17). The Bible is inspired by the Holy Spirit and therefore is without error and is our only rule for faith and life (II Peter 1:20, 21; John 5:39).
CREATION AND PROVIDENCE
We believe that God created of nothing the universe and all creatures for His own glory (Rev. 4:11). By the infinite power and wisdom of His providence God still upholds and governs all things to His appointed end so that nothing happens by chance (Acts 17:24-28). His power and goodness are so great and incomprehensible that He orders and executes His work in the most excellent and just manner so that all things must serve His own glory and the salvation of His chosen people (Rom. 8:28; Eph. 1:10, 11).
MAN AND HIS FALL INTO SIN
We believe that God created man good and in His own image, and therefore capable of willing and doing the will of God (Gen. 1:27, 31). But man willfully disobeyed God, believed the lie of the Devil, and therefore became subject to death (Gen. 2:17; Rom. 5:12; 6:23). As a result, all men are conceived and born dead in trespasses and sins (Ps. 51:5; Eph. 2:1, 2). This is the truth of total depravity, which includes both imputed guilt and inherited corruption. Man has deprived himself of all his excellent gifts and is become wholly incapable of willing or doing any good and is inclined to all wickedness (Ps. 14:1; Rom. 8:7, 8; I Cor. 2:14, Eph. 2:1).
THE DOCTRINE OF PREDESTINATION
We believe that God has chosen in Christ out of the whole human race a people unto Himself (Eph. 1:4-6, 11; Rom. 8:29, 30). This election is grounded solely in God's good pleasure and not at all in man's works (II Tim. 1:9; Rom. 9:11). From God's purpose of election proceeds all the gifts of salvation, including faith itself (Acts 13:48; Eph. 2:8, 9). The Scriptures also teach very clearly the decree of reprobation whereby God appoints all others to everlasting damnation in the way of their own sin (Matt. 11:25-27; Rom. 9:11-13; II Thess. 2:11, 12; I Peter 2:8; II Peter 2:12). The assurance of election works humiliation before God and grateful adoration of His mercy.
JESUS THE CHRIST
We believe that our most gracious God, in harmony with His eternal purpose of love toward His people, sent His only begotten Son into our flesh, so that He became like us in all things, sin excepted (John 1:14; 3:16, 17; I Tim. 3:16). Jesus, having assumed our human nature in which sin was committed, satisfied the justice of God with respect to our sin and guilt by his most bitter suffering and death (Heb. 2:14-17; Gal. 3:13). His perfect death atoned for all the sins of all the elect only, thereby reconciling them to God in eternal fellowship and friendship (Matt. 1:21; II Cor. 5:18). This relationship of friendship which God establishes with His people in Christ is His covenant of grace (James 2:23; Gen. 17:7).
THE GOSPEL
We believe that the gospel is the good news of salvation in Jesus Christ. Christ Himself has called His church to preach this gospel to every creature (Mark 16:15). It is in the preaching of the gospel that Jesus Christ Himself calls men to repentance and faith (Luke 10:16; Acts 17:30; Eph. 4:21) It is through the preaching of the gospel that God works faith in the elect and strengthens and preserves that faith.
SALVATION
We believe that the salvation which Christ merited is applied to God's elect by the Holy Spirit and through the preaching of the Word. God does not offer salvation to the sinner, to be accepted or rejected through the exercise of his free will. But He powerfully works His promise in the elect. The Holy Spirit regenerates them, thereby enabling them by faith to participate in and enjoy eternal fellowship with God (Ezekiel 11:19; John 3:3, 8; II Cor. 2:14, 15). Thus the elect, regenerated man is brought by the Spirit to a consciousness of his sin and to faith in Jesus Christ as the only and complete Savior (Acts 13:48; 16:14).
True conversion is a sincere sorrow of heart for one's sin and a turning from sin; it is a sincere joy in God through Christ with love and delight to do God's will in all good works (Ps. 51:3, 8, 17; Rom. 5:1, 2; 8:10, 11).
Faith is the gift of the Holy Spirit of Christ to the elect believer (Eph. 2:8, 9; Acts 16:14). It is the bond that unites the elect, regenerated child of God to Christ, and in the power of this faith the believer receives the truth of the gospel, embraces Christ as His Savior, and receives all the blessings of salvation (John 1:12; 15:4, 5). By this faith in Christ the believer is justified before God apart from works (Rom. 3:24; 8:33, 34; Gal. 2:16).
The Holy Spirit also sanctifies the believer, causing him to grow in grace, knowledge, and in a life of good works. Though the Holy Spirit irresistibly sanctifies God's people in this life, perfection is not attained until the believer enters glory (II Thess. 2:13; II Peter 3:18; Eph. 2:10; Phil. 3:12).
The believer can neither totally nor finally fall from the state of grace into which he has been called, but shall certainly be preserved until he arrives at eternal glory. The security of the elect believer is because of God's unchangeable decree of election, His constant love, and finally because of the efficacy of Christ atonement and intercession (John 10:28, 29; I Peter 1:5, 9; Heb. 7:25).
THE CHURCH
We believe that the one, invisible Church of God consists of all the elect of God, gathered from the beginning to the end of the world, of which Jesus Christ is the Head (Eph. 1:22, 23). This Church is gathered out of all nations, yet is united by the power of the Spirit of Christ in one faith (Eph. 4:3, 4; Rev. 7:9). This invisible Church manifests itself as the gathering of believers and their children (I Cor. 1:2; Gen. 17:7). We believe that is the duty of every believer to unite himself with his children to that congregation which manifests the marks of the true Church of Jesus Christ in the world. These marks are three: the pure preaching of the Word, the proper administration of the sacraments, and the faithful exercise of Christian discipline (Acts 2:42; Heb. 10:25; Matt. 18:18; I Cor. 5:13). For the Church of God in the world Christ has ordained the offices of pastors, elders, and deacons. These officebearers represent Christ, the King of the Church, and govern His Church by His Word (Eph. 4:11, 12; I Tim. 3:1-13; 5:17). The faithful preaching of the gospel is Christ's means, both in the established church and on the mission fields, to gather and sustain His people in the faith (Matt. 28:18, 20; Acts 20:28).
THE SACRAMENTS
We believe that God, in order to strengthen our faith, has ordained the sacraments of holy baptism and the Lord's Supper. These sacraments are holy signs and seals whereby God signifies to us the death of Christ and seals to us the righteousness which is by faith (Rom. 4:11). In the New Dispensation baptism is a sign and seal of God's covenant of grace, as circumcision was in the Old Dispensation (Col. 2:11, 12). Since Christ shed His blood for the washing away of the sins of elect children no less than for elect adults, and because God gathers His people in the line of generations, the children of believers ought also to be baptized (Matt. 19:14; Gen. 17:7). We believe that the sacrament of the Lord's Supper signifies conscious fellowship by faith with Christ and seals the righteousness which is by faith in Him to the worthy partakers of this sacrament (I Cor. 10:16; Matt. 26:26-28).
THE CHRISTIAN LIFE
We believe that the Holy Spirit works in the child of God life-long gratitude to God for so great a salvation (Is. 43:21; Titus 2:14). Our gratitude to God is manifested in the daily crucifying of our old nature of sin and in the performance of every good work (John 15:4, 5). Our good works proceed out of a true and living faith, are in harmony with the law of God, and are performed to God's glory (Micah 6:8; Rom. 11:36; 14:23; I Cor. 10:31). The Scriptures teach the necessity of a God-centered life in every aspect of our earthly pilgrimage. We believe that the Scriptures teach that marriage is an unbreakable relationship between a man and his wife established by God, and that the children of believers are covenant blessings (Eph. 5:30, 31; Ps. 127:3). The Christian in his vocation must labor diligently and submissively, not as a menpleaser, but fearing God (Col. 3:22-25). The Christian is called to submit himself to the government of the land as the authority which is ordained by God (Rom. 13:1-7). And with regard to the Church, the believer is called to be zealous for God's cause, faithful in his worship attendance, and diligent to minister to his fellow saints.
THE FUTURE
We believe that although physical death is God's judgment upon sin, the sting of death is gone for the believer and death is the means by which God brings him immediately into conscious glory with Christ in heaven (Luke 23:43; I Cor. 15:55-57; II Cor. 5:8). The unbelieving and ungodly bear the punishment for their sin not only in this life and in death, but also forever in hell (Heb. 10:29, 30; Rev. 20:15).
We believe that the millennium is now, in which Christ exercises His Kingship in the preaching of the gospel and the gathering and preservation of His people. We reject the idea of a future earthly kingdom-reign of Christ in Jerusalem for 1000 years (John 12:31, 32; Rev. 20:11-15). We believe that at the second coming of Christ the bodies of all men will be raised out of the dead and re-united with their souls. All will then be judged according to their works and those saved in Christ will be partakers of Christ's life in eternal glory and those that have not believed will receive everlasting and just damnation (John 5:28, 29; II Cor. 5:10). We await that great day of Christ's return with a most ardent desire to the end that we may fully enjoy the promised fellowship with God in Christ Jesus our Lord.
There are the basic beliefs and teachings of the Protestant Reformed Churches in America.
vivalarevolution Wrote:First the behavior was perfect, then it degraded to a level where telling humans the importance of loving your neighbour just wasn't understandable.
How could creation be perfect if it was corruptible? Also how could Adam and eve be punished for sinning, when they didn't know right from wrong?
vivalarevolution Wrote:(This was before Romans gathered to see lions eat prisoners)
In a world where Child sacrifice and the likes were prevalent, man had no sense to treat everyone with respect. The world was barbaric, and to keep a country (Israel) pure and alive till the messiah arrived, it was necessary for rules to be set up so that they wouldn't do anything wrong.]
Have.. Have you read those rules?? How do you account for the 6 or so quotes by Jesus himself, upholding OT law to the end of days?
vivalarevolution Wrote:When the world's morality improved and people were able to understand Jesus' teachings of love and compassion (still note that this was while Romans gathered to see lions eat prisoners) god sent Jesus to explain it all to them.
Jesus himself called for children to be killed by their own ilk. Seems pretty comparable to me.
Vivalarevolution Wrote:Apart from that there are numerous prophecies in the bible which foretell the coming of Jesus. The fall of Tyre is one. The exile of the 10 tribes is another (It happened over 200 years) Read Isaiah and Eziekel
*insert real archaeology here
Read it.
vivalarevolution Wrote:We don't believe in the Adam and eve thing and the talking donkey and all. They are just stories to explain the situation of man at that particular point of time.
It's sad how such rigid beliefs tend to alienate people from Christianity
Its sad when people who aren't even true Christians believe they are because they haven't even read their own Bible, and judge others who have read it, for their non belief.
*Sigh*
1) How could they be corruptible?
- What answer will do for you?
2) Have you read Jesus' quotes on the OT laws.
- Yes I have. And I have explained what I and a number of us believe in another thread. He was talking about the 10 commandments. He didn't make it necessary to keep the laws. He did things on the sabbath, didn't stone an adulteress, his death got rid of animal sacrifices. Also, his "Judge not" and "Love thy neighbour" would really contradict the law if the Sanhedrin were required to judge and kill offenders of the law. So . . . yeah the 10 commandments.
3)Jesus called for children to be killed.
- Ok. I'm drowsy from all the typing so just tell me where you got that from and I'll get back to you on that.
4)Insert real archaeology here* sigh again *
-I knew this would come up. Ok. I'll go one by one and write the important words in capitals.
a) He ( Nebuchadnezzar) will go to war against you. He will destroy your settlements on the COAST.
Nebuchadnezzar attacked Tyre in 573 BC. The citizens took their belongings and shipped themselves off to an island about half a mile from the coast. Hence the coastal city was ruined, but not the island city.
b) "Many NATIONS will attack you" and "Rubble will be thrown in the ocean
-When Alexander the great wanted to conquer the island city, he couldn't because his navy was too far away and he was impatient. So he took the rubble from the Coastal city and made a causeway to the island city, thereby taking it. By the time the bridge was completed, the navy from his other conquered NATIONS came in to attack Tyre.
Also the remnants were destroyed by attacking Muslims in 1291, completely destroying it.
c) Fishing nets will be laid out
- Yes. Even today there are fishermen in Tyre, laying out their nets.
d) the city will never be built.
- The real Tyre ( on the mainland) has NEVER BEEN REBUILT. The city of 117,000 today is not the ancient city of Tyre.
You may say that therefore the muslims didn't attack the real Tyre. But they did. And destroyed it. People continued to live there. It's called Tyre and now is the 4th largest city in Lebanon. Hence, old Tyre is finished and remains only as Roman ruins in the Necropolis on the mainland.
5) "Its sad when people who aren't even true Christians believe they are because they haven't even read their own Bible, and judge others who have read it, for their non belief."
- What are you talking about? I was speaking on your side
October 18, 2014 at 5:00 am (This post was last modified: October 18, 2014 at 5:03 am by Aractus.)
(October 18, 2014 at 4:04 am)Vivalarevolution Wrote: 1) I don't think the Israelites spoke hebrew while in Egypt. Furthermore Moses was raised in an Egyptian household. The earliest known hebrew writing dates from 1000 BC give or take a few years. (The gezer calendar)
Because they were never in Egypt. If they were in Egypt, and they were slaves, something would have been written down - regardless of whether or not they felt it fit to record the Exodus, a record of their stay in Egypt would exist.
Quote:2) Abraham wasn't native to Canaan. It's more likely he spoke and taught his children Sumerian or aramaic. Though we can be certain he could communicate with other Canaanites.
Abraham didn't write anything. The Bible doesn't claim that he wrote anything, so what he spoke is irrelevant.
Quote:4) when moses went for a total of 80 years out of Egypt he must have picked up certain words from the natives.
Moses is meant to have written down the Ten Commandments on stone tablets, twice. He's also meant to have done so on Mt. Sinai, however he and the ancient Israelites never actually went there!
Quote:6) when the hebrews settled in Canaan I doubt they'd speak Egyptian as fluently as their parents since they weren't born in Egypt. They'd probably have knowledge of local languages.
Right, even though Egyptians had heavily fortified strongholds like this one in Canaan at the time (there have also been two more that have been excavated and also date to the 15th - mid 12th centuries BC)? The entire Canaan region was controlled by Egypt through to the mid 12th century, and they still had a presence there after that (this is confirmed not just by their strongholds, but by hundreds or thousands of cuneiform tables of communication between Egypt and Canaan).
When the Bible was written (i.e. the Pentateuch), it was done so to tell the Israelites that they this grand history and that they were stronger than Egypt.
Quote:8) The first appearance of classical hebrew around 10th century BC fits perfectly with the Saul- David timeline
Except that no 10th century BC Hebrew has ever been discovered.
For Religion & Health see:[/b][/size] Williams & Sternthal. (2007). Spirituality, religion and health: Evidence and research directions. Med. J. Aust., 186(10), S47-S50.-LINK
The WIN/Gallup End of Year Survey 2013 found the US was perceived to be the greatest threat to world peace by a huge margin, with 24% of respondents fearful of the US followed by: 8% for Pakistan, and 6% for China. This was followed by 5% each for: Afghanistan, Iran, Israel, North Korea.-LINK
"That's disgusting. There were clean athletes out there that have had their whole careers ruined by people like Lance Armstrong who just bended thoughts to fit their circumstances. He didn't look up cheating because he wanted to stop, he wanted to justify what he was doing and to keep that continuing on." - Nicole Cooke
October 18, 2014 at 5:18 am (This post was last modified: October 18, 2014 at 5:18 am by Vivalarevolution.)
Hmm cool insight.
However you're comments on hebrews in Egypt and mt sinai is not verifiable unless we had a time machine or more proof
Oh yeah and this doesn't prove anything , just wanted to write-
The pentateuch is only some history. Half of it is instructions on how to act. The real history starts in Joshua. Just wanted to put it out there.
10th century BC hebrew- it's on the gezer calendar in pheonician or proto hebrew
Yeah, V, can I call you V? I'm tired too. I'll give you proper responses tomorrow
Were you speaking for my side? It seemed to me, like you were belittling the reasons why atheists dont believe in god-Christ, by elevating yourself above their issues with Christianity.
If I were to create self aware beings knowing fully what they would do in their lifetimes, I sure wouldn't create a HELL for the majority of them to live in infinitely! That's not Love, that's sadistic. Therefore a truly loving god does not exist!
Quote:The sin is against an infinite being (God) unforgiven infinitely, therefore the punishment is infinite.
Dead wrong. The actions of a finite being measured against an infinite one are infinitesimal and therefore merit infinitesimal punishment.
Quote:Some people deserve hell.
I say again: No exceptions. Punishment should be equal to the crime, not in excess of it. As soon as the punishment is greater than the crime, the punisher is in the wrong.
October 18, 2014 at 5:34 am (This post was last modified: October 18, 2014 at 5:46 am by Aractus.)
(October 18, 2014 at 5:18 am)Vivalarevolution Wrote: However you're comments on hebrews in Egypt and mt sinai is not verifiable unless we had a time machine or more proof
We don't have proof, we have something called evidence. Why do you think scholars use the term "Biblical Mount Sinai"? I'll give you a hint: because they acknowledge that Moses and the Israelites never went to Mt. Sinai!
The problem you have is in numbers. In the 15th-13th centuries BC, around the time when the exodus was supposed to have occurred, the population of Egypt was around 3.5 million at its height. The bible claims, several times, that 600,000 men aged from 20 left Egypt with their families - that would total around 2-3 million Jews leaving Egypt all at one time. That means they actually outnumbered the Egyptians. So therefore if they outnumbered the Egyptians - and we have hundreds (and probably thousands) of separate Egyptian writings on clay, pottery and stone that have survived from those centuries, where are the ones from the ancient Jews in those centuries (written in any language)? There aren't any! How can that possibly be?
(October 18, 2014 at 5:18 am)Vivalarevolution Wrote: The real history starts in Joshua. Just wanted to put it out there.
Okay, so you mean this:
Joshua conquers Jericho. “Joshua said to the people, ‘Shout, for the Lord has given you the city. And the city and all that is within it shall be devoted to the Lord for destruction. … But all silver and gold, and every vessel of bronze and iron, are holy to Jehovah; they shall go into the treasury of Jehovah.’ … Then they devoted all in the city to destruction, both men and women, young and old, oxen, sheep, and donkeys, with the edge of the sword.” (6:16-17, 19, 21).
Joshua conquers Ai. “Jehovah said to Joshua, ‘… you shall do to Ai and its king as you did to Jericho and its king. Only its spoil and its livestock you shall take as plunder for yourselves. Lay an ambush against the city, behind it.’ … And the men in the ambush rose quickly out of their place, and as soon as he had stretched out his hand, they ran and entered the city and captured it. And they hurried to set the city on fire. … And when Joshua and all Israel saw that the ambush had captured the city, … then they turned back and struck down the men of Ai. And the others came out from the city against them, so they were in the midst of Israel, some on this side, and some on that side. And Israel struck them down, until there was left none that survived or escaped. … And all who fell that day, both men and women, were 12,000, all the people of Ai.” (8:1-2, 19, 21-22, 25).
Joshua makes the sun and moon stand still while he finishes slaughtering the Ai civilians ...“Joshua spoke to Jehovah …, and he said in the sight of Israel,
“‘Sun, stand still at Gibeon,
and moon, in the Valley of Aijalon.’
“And the sun stood still, and the moon stopped,
until the nation took vengeance on their enemies.
“Is this not written in the Book of Jashar? The sun stopped in the midst of heaven and did not hurry to set for about a whole day. There has been no day like it before or since, when the Lord heeded the voice of a man, for the Lord fought for Israel.” (10:12-14).
** “it happened that the day was lengthened that the night not come on too soon, and be an obstruction to the zeal of the Hebrews in pursuing their enemies” - (Flavius Josephus - Ant., 5.61).
Joshua kills the Amorite Kings and takes Makkedah. “Then Joshua said, ‘Open the mouth of the cave and bring those five kings out to me from the cave.’ And they did so, and brought those five kings out to him from the cave, the king of Jerusalem, the king of Hebron, the king of Jarmuth, the king of Lachish, and the king of Eglon. … Joshua struck them and put them to death, and he hanged them on five trees. And they hung on the trees until evening. But at the time of the going down of the sun, Joshua commanded, and they took them down from the trees and threw them into the cave where they had hidden themselves, and they set large stones against the mouth of the cave, which remain to this very day.
“As for Makkedah, Joshua captured it on that day and struck it, and its king, with the edge of the sword. He devoted to destruction every person in it; he left none remaining. And he did to the king of Makkedah just as he had done to the king of Jericho.” (10:22-23, 26-28).
Joshua takes Southern Canaan. “Then Joshua and all Israel with him passed on from Makkedah to Libnah and fought against Libnah. And the Lord gave it also and its king into the hand of Israel. And he struck it with the edge of the sword, and every person in it; he left none remaining in it. And he did to its king as he had done to the king of Jericho.
“Then Joshua and all Israel with him passed on from Libnah to Lachish and laid siege to it and fought against it. And the Lord gave Lachish into the hand of Israel, and he captured it on the second day and struck it with the edge of the sword, and every person in it, as he had done to Libnah.
“Then Horam king of Gezer came up to help Lachish. And Joshua struck him and his people, until he left none remaining.
“Then Joshua and all Israel with him passed on from Lachish to Eglon. And they laid siege to it and fought against it. And they captured it on that day, and struck it with the edge of the sword. And he devoted every person in it to destruction that day, as he had done to Lachish.
“Then Joshua and all Israel with him went up from Eglon to Hebron. And they fought against it and captured it and struck it with the edge of the sword, and its king and its towns, and every person in it. He left none remaining, as he had done to Eglon, and devoted it to destruction and every person in it.
“Then Joshua and all Israel with him turned back to Debir and fought against it and he captured it with its king and all its towns. And they struck them with the edge of the sword and devoted to destruction every person in it; he left none remaining. Just as he had done to Hebron and to Libnah and its king, so he did to Debir and to its king.
“So Joshua struck the whole land, the hill country and the Negeb and the lowland and the slopes, and all their kings. He left none remaining, but devoted to destruction all that breathed, just as Jehovah the God of Israel commanded.” (10:29-40).
Joshua takes Northern Canaan. “When Jabin, king of Hazor, heard of this, he sent to Jobab king of Madon, and to the king of Shimron, and to the king of Achshaph, and to the kings who were in the northern hill country, and in the Arabah south of Chinneroth, and in the lowland, and in Naphoth-dor on the west, to the Canaanites in the east and the west, the Amorites, the Hittites, the Perizzites, and the Jebusites in the hill country, and the Hivites under Hermon in the land of Mizpah. And they came out with all their troops, a great horde, in number like the sand that is on the seashore, with very many horses and chariots. .. So Joshua and all his warriors came suddenly against them by the waters of Merom and fell upon them. And Jehovah gave them into the hand of Israel, who struck them and chased them as far as Great Sidon and Misrephoth-maim, and eastwards as far as the Valley of Mizpeh. And they struck them until he left none remaining. …
“And Joshua turned back at that time and captured Hazor and struck its king with the sword, for Hazor formerly was the head of all those kingdoms. And they struck with the sword all who were in it, devoting them to destruction; there was none left that breathed. And he burned Hazor with fire. And all the cities of those kings, and all their kings, Joshua captured, and struck them with the edge of the sword, devoting them to destruction, just as Moses the servant of the Lord had commanded. …
“For it was the Jehovah’s doing to harden their hearts that they should come against Israel in battle, in order that they should be devoted to destruction and should receive no mercy but be destroyed, just as the Jehovah commanded Moses.
“And Joshua came at that time and cut off the Anakim from the hill country, from Hebron, from Debir, from Anab, and from all the hill country of Judah, and from all the hill country of Israel. Joshua devoted them to destruction with their cities. There was none of the Anakim left in the land of the people of Israel. Only in Gaza, in Gath, and in Ashdod did some remain. So Joshua took the whole land, according to all that the Lord had spoken to Moses. And Joshua gave it for an inheritance to Israel according to their tribal allotments. And the land had rest from war.” (11:1-4, 7-8, 10-12, 20-23).
Whew. That's what you're claiming is real tangible history?
Here's your first problem: The destruction of Jericho dates (radiocarbon dating of organic material) to 17th-16th century BC, well before the exodus is meant to have occurred.
For Religion & Health see:[/b][/size] Williams & Sternthal. (2007). Spirituality, religion and health: Evidence and research directions. Med. J. Aust., 186(10), S47-S50.-LINK
The WIN/Gallup End of Year Survey 2013 found the US was perceived to be the greatest threat to world peace by a huge margin, with 24% of respondents fearful of the US followed by: 8% for Pakistan, and 6% for China. This was followed by 5% each for: Afghanistan, Iran, Israel, North Korea.-LINK
"That's disgusting. There were clean athletes out there that have had their whole careers ruined by people like Lance Armstrong who just bended thoughts to fit their circumstances. He didn't look up cheating because he wanted to stop, he wanted to justify what he was doing and to keep that continuing on." - Nicole Cooke
"No no, the OTHER Tyre! The one they haven't found... JUST LIKE IN THE PROPHECY!!!" *victory dance*
"Well, evolution is a theory. It is also a fact. And facts and theories are different things, not rungs in a hierarchy of increasing certainty. Facts are the world's data. Theories are structures of ideas that explain and interpret facts. Facts don't go away when scientists debate rival theories to explain them. Einstein's theory of gravitation replaced Newton's in this century, but apples didn't suspend themselves in midair, pending the outcome. And humans evolved from ape- like ancestors whether they did so by Darwin's proposed mechanism or by some other yet to be discovered."
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