(October 18, 2014 at 5:34 am)Aractus Wrote:

(October 18, 2014 at 5:18 am)Vivalarevolution Wrote: However you're comments on hebrews in Egypt and mt sinai is not verifiable unless we had a time machine or more proof

We don't have proof, we have something called evidence. Why do you think scholars use the term "Biblical Mount Sinai"? I'll give you a hint: because they acknowledge that Moses and the Israelites never went to Mt. Sinai!

The problem you have is in numbers. In the 15th-13th centuries BC, around the time when the exodus was supposed to have occurred, the population of Egypt was around 3.5 million at its height. The bible claims, several times, that 600,000 men aged from 20 left Egypt with their families - that would total around 2-3 million Jews leaving Egypt all at one time. That means they actually outnumbered the Egyptians. So therefore if they outnumbered the Egyptians - and we have hundreds (and probably thousands) of separate Egyptian writings on clay, pottery and stone that have survived from those centuries, where are the ones from the ancient Jews in those centuries (written in any language)? There aren't any! How can that possibly be?

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(October 18, 2014 at 5:18 am)Vivalarevolution Wrote: The real history starts in Joshua. Just wanted to put it out there.

Okay, so you mean this:

• Joshua conquers Jericho. “Joshua said to the people, ‘Shout, for the Lord has given you the city. And the city and all that is within it shall be devoted to the Lord for destruction. … But all silver and gold, and every vessel of bronze and iron, are holy to Jehovah; they shall go into the treasury of Jehovah.’ … Then they devoted all in the city to destruction, both men and women, young and old, oxen, sheep, and donkeys, with the edge of the sword.” (6:16-17, 19, 21).
  
• Joshua conquers Ai. “Jehovah said to Joshua, ‘… you shall do to Ai and its king as you did to Jericho and its king. Only its spoil and its livestock you shall take as plunder for yourselves. Lay an ambush against the city, behind it.’ … And the men in the ambush rose quickly out of their place, and as soon as he had stretched out his hand, they ran and entered the city and captured it. And they hurried to set the city on fire. … And when Joshua and all Israel saw that the ambush had captured the city, … then they turned back and struck down the men of Ai. And the others came out from the city against them, so they were in the midst of Israel, some on this side, and some on that side. And Israel struck them down, until there was left none that survived or escaped. … And all who fell that day, both men and women, were 12,000, all the people of Ai.” (8:1-2, 19, 21-22, 25).
  
• Joshua makes the sun and moon stand still while he finishes slaughtering the Ai civilians ...“Joshua spoke to Jehovah …, and he said in the sight of Israel,
  “‘Sun, stand still at Gibeon,
  and moon, in the Valley of Aijalon.’
  “And the sun stood still, and the moon stopped,
  until the nation took vengeance on their enemies.
  “Is this not written in the Book of Jashar? The sun stopped in the midst of heaven and did not hurry to set for about a whole day. There has been no day like it before or since, when the Lord heeded the voice of a man, for the Lord fought for Israel.” (10:12-14).
  ** “it happened that the day was lengthened that the night not come on too soon, and be an obstruction to the zeal of the Hebrews in pursuing their enemies” - (Flavius Josephus - Ant., 5.61).
  
• Joshua kills the Amorite Kings and takes Makkedah. “Then Joshua said, ‘Open the mouth of the cave and bring those five kings out to me from the cave.’ And they did so, and brought those five kings out to him from the cave, the king of Jerusalem, the king of Hebron, the king of Jarmuth, the king of Lachish, and the king of Eglon. … Joshua struck them and put them to death, and he hanged them on five trees. And they hung on the trees until evening. But at the time of the going down of the sun, Joshua commanded, and they took them down from the trees and threw them into the cave where they had hidden themselves, and they set large stones against the mouth of the cave, which remain to this very day.
  “As for Makkedah, Joshua captured it on that day and struck it, and its king, with the edge of the sword. He devoted to destruction every person in it; he left none remaining. And he did to the king of Makkedah just as he had done to the king of Jericho.” (10:22-23, 26-28).
  
• Joshua takes Southern Canaan. “Then Joshua and all Israel with him passed on from Makkedah to Libnah and fought against Libnah. And the Lord gave it also and its king into the hand of Israel. And he struck it with the edge of the sword, and every person in it; he left none remaining in it. And he did to its king as he had done to the king of Jericho.
  “Then Joshua and all Israel with him passed on from Libnah to Lachish and laid siege to it and fought against it. And the Lord gave Lachish into the hand of Israel, and he captured it on the second day and struck it with the edge of the sword, and every person in it, as he had done to Libnah.
  “Then Horam king of Gezer came up to help Lachish. And Joshua struck him and his people, until he left none remaining.
  “Then Joshua and all Israel with him passed on from Lachish to Eglon. And they laid siege to it and fought against it. And they captured it on that day, and struck it with the edge of the sword. And he devoted every person in it to destruction that day, as he had done to Lachish.
  “Then Joshua and all Israel with him went up from Eglon to Hebron. And they fought against it and captured it and struck it with the edge of the sword, and its king and its towns, and every person in it. He left none remaining, as he had done to Eglon, and devoted it to destruction and every person in it.
  “Then Joshua and all Israel with him turned back to Debir and fought against it and he captured it with its king and all its towns. And they struck them with the edge of the sword and devoted to destruction every person in it; he left none remaining. Just as he had done to Hebron and to Libnah and its king, so he did to Debir and to its king.
  “So Joshua struck the whole land, the hill country and the Negeb and the lowland and the slopes, and all their kings. He left none remaining, but devoted to destruction all that breathed, just as Jehovah the God of Israel commanded.” (10:29-40).
  
• Joshua takes Northern Canaan. “When Jabin, king of Hazor, heard of this, he sent to Jobab king of Madon, and to the king of Shimron, and to the king of Achshaph, and to the kings who were in the northern hill country, and in the Arabah south of Chinneroth, and in the lowland, and in Naphoth-dor on the west, to the Canaanites in the east and the west, the Amorites, the Hittites, the Perizzites, and the Jebusites in the hill country, and the Hivites under Hermon in the land of Mizpah. And they came out with all their troops, a great horde, in number like the sand that is on the seashore, with very many horses and chariots. .. So Joshua and all his warriors came suddenly against them by the waters of Merom and fell upon them. And Jehovah gave them into the hand of Israel, who struck them and chased them as far as Great Sidon and Misrephoth-maim, and eastwards as far as the Valley of Mizpeh. And they struck them until he left none remaining. …
  “And Joshua turned back at that time and captured Hazor and struck its king with the sword, for Hazor formerly was the head of all those kingdoms. And they struck with the sword all who were in it, devoting them to destruction; there was none left that breathed. And he burned Hazor with fire. And all the cities of those kings, and all their kings, Joshua captured, and struck them with the edge of the sword, devoting them to destruction, just as Moses the servant of the Lord had commanded. …
  “For it was the Jehovah’s doing to harden their hearts that they should come against Israel in battle, in order that they should be devoted to destruction and should receive no mercy but be destroyed, just as the Jehovah commanded Moses.
  “And Joshua came at that time and cut off the Anakim from the hill country, from Hebron, from Debir, from Anab, and from all the hill country of Judah, and from all the hill country of Israel. Joshua devoted them to destruction with their cities. There was none of the Anakim left in the land of the people of Israel. Only in Gaza, in Gath, and in Ashdod did some remain. So Joshua took the whole land, according to all that the Lord had spoken to Moses. And Joshua gave it for an inheritance to Israel according to their tribal allotments. And the land had rest from war.” (11:1-4, 7-8, 10-12, 20-23).

Whew. That's what you're claiming is real tangible history?

Here's your first problem: The destruction of Jericho dates (radiocarbon dating of organic material) to 17th-16th century BC, well before the exodus is meant to have occurred.

I didn't mean it that way. I made it clear that I had nothing to argue about there. I just said that a narrative like structure was very limited in the pentateuch. Starting from Joshua, there isn't any law-giving., just historical type narratives. We don't have to argue on EVERYTHING

Ps- I don't treat the bible as the word of god. Maybe exodus never happened and the hebrews just went to fight against their neighbours for petty reasons. I'm not going to imply anything affirmatively before the new testament

Wheres Drich? He'd be calling you a bloody heretic right now

(October 18, 2014 at 12:31 am)Vivalarevolution Wrote: We believe that it just narrates through mythology and real events how man came to understand god and how mankinds behaviour evolved. First the behavior was perfect, then it degraded to a level where telling humans the importance of loving your neighbour just wasn't understandable. (This was before Romans gathered to see lions eat prisoners)
In a world where Child sacrifice and the likes were prevalent, man had no sense to treat everyone with respect. The world was barbaric, and to keep a country (Israel) pure and alive till the messiah arrived, it was necessary for rules to be set up so that they wouldn't do anything wrong.

When the world's morality improved and people were able to understand Jesus' teachings of love and compassion (still note that this was while Romans gathered to see lions eat prisoners) god sent Jesus to explain it all to them.

This is one of the problems with Christianity - in order to believe your fantasies, you have to create and believe in fictional history. What the evidence actually indicates is that human moral behavior was far from perfect but has been steadily improving over the ages with a few setbacks. Things like value of human life and loving your fellow man were understood and practiced long before your Jesus came along. And the tribe of Israel was hardly "pure", given the actions attributed to them.

There are moral philosophies teaching love and compassion that do it better than Jesus that are older than him - so the story that the world was in a state of moral depravity and Jesus came to improve that is a lie. The world was nowhere near as bad as you make it out to be and Jesus didn't improve it much.

Quote:I didn't mean it that way. I made it clear that I had nothing to argue about there. I just said that a narrative like structure was very limited in the pentateuch. Starting from Joshua, there isn't any law-giving., just historical type narratives. We don't have to argue on EVERYTHING

I'm afraid we do.


http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/704190/posts

Quote:he conquest: One of the formative events of the people of Israel in biblical historiography is the story of how the land was conquered from the Canaanites. Yet extremely serious difficulties have cropped up precisely in the attempts to locate the archaeological evidence for this story. Repeated excavations by various expeditions at Jericho and Ai, the two cities whose conquest is described in the greatest detail in the Book of Joshua, have proved very disappointing. Despite the excavators' efforts, it emerged that in the late part of the 13th century BCE, at the end of the Late Bronze Age, which is the agreed period for the conquest, there were no cities in either tell, and of course no walls that could have been toppled. Naturally, explanations were offered for these anomalies. Some claimed that the walls around Jericho were washed away by rain, while others suggested that earlier walls had been used; and, as for Ai, it was claimed that the original story actually referred to the conquest of nearby Beit El and was transferred to Ai by later redactors.

Biblical scholars suggested a quarter of a century ago that the conquest stories be viewed as etiological legends and no more. But as more and more sites were uncovered and it emerged that the places in question died out or were simply abandoned at different times, the conclusion that there is no factual basis for the biblical story about the conquest by Israelite tribes in a military campaign led by Joshua was bolstered.

• The Canaanite cities: The Bible magnifies the strength and the fortifications of the Canaanite cities that were conquered by the Israelites: 'great cities with walls sky-high' (Deuteronomy 9:1). In practice, all the sites that have been uncovered turned up remains of unfortified settlements, which in most cases consisted of a few structures or the ruler's palace rather than a genuine city. The urban culture of Palestine in the Late Bronze Age disintegrated in a process that lasted hundreds of years and did not stem from military conquest.

Moreover, the biblical description is unfamiliar with the geopolitical reality in Palestine. Palestine was under Egyptian rule until the middle of the 12th century BCE. The Egyptians' administrative centers were located in Gaza, Yaffo and Beit She'an. Egyptian presence has also been discovered in many locations on both sides of the Jordan River. This striking presence is not mentioned in the biblical account, and it is clear that it was unknown to the author and his editors. The archaeological findings blatantly contradict the biblical picture: the Canaanite cities were not 'great,' were not fortified and did not have 'sky-high walls.' The heroism of the conquerors, the few versus the many and the assistance of the God who fought for his people are a theological reconstruction lacking any factual basis.

Professor Herzog knows a shitload more about archaeology than you do.

Adding that to my list of Biblical lies.

Jumping back in to the question of the OP, here is a goodie from the list of names sequentially from Genesis one,
making a sentence reading downward.

Adam- - -- - man
Seth - - --- appointed
Enosh- -- - mortal
Kenan - - - sorrow
Mahalaleh- the blessed God
Jared- - - - shall come down
Enoch- -- - teaching
Methuselah- his death shall bring
Lamech- - - the despairing
Noah- - --- rest / comfort

Please give me the odds of the above happening by accident written thousands of years BC.

(October 18, 2014 at 3:59 pm)professor Wrote: Jumping back in to the question of the OP, here is a goodie from the list of names sequentially from Genesis one,
making a sentence reading downward.

Adam- - -- - man
Seth - - --- appointed
Enosh- -- - mortal
Kenan - - - sorrow
Mahalaleh- the blessed God
Jared- - - - shall come down
Enoch- -- - teaching
Methuselah- his death shall bring
Lamech- - - the despairing
Noah- - --- rest / comfort

Please give me the odds of the above happening by accident written thousands of years BC.

Zero.

(October 18, 2014 at 3:59 pm)professor Wrote: Jumping back in to the question of the OP, here is a goodie from the list of names sequentially from Genesis one,
making a sentence reading downward.

Adam- - -- - man
Seth - - --- appointed
Enosh- -- - mortal
Kenan - - - sorrow
Mahalaleh- the blessed God
Jared- - - - shall come down
Enoch- -- - teaching
Methuselah- his death shall bring
Lamech- - - the despairing
Noah- - --- rest / comfort

Please give me the odds of the above happening by accident written thousands of years BC.

First all Hebrew names mean something, and that something often includes god. So if you string a bunch of them together you are likely to get sentences about god.

Second, while "Man appointed mortal sorrow the blessed God shall come down teaching his death shall bring the desparing comfort," sounds like a prophecy of Jesus in pidgen English, using the actual meanings of the names blows the illusion out of the water:

Seth does not mean "appointed" it means "appointed one." Enosh means "human being." Kenan means "possession" or "smith." I don't know where you got sorrow. Mahalaleh means "praise of god," not "blessed god." Jared means "descent." Enoch means "dedicated" not "teaching." The meaning of Methuselah is unclear. The best guesses are:
"man of the dart" (or possibly "spear"), "he shall send his death" or "when he is dead it shall be sent." Lamech means "powerful" or "wild man." Noah means "comfort" or "rest".

So I get:

Appointed one human being possession praise of god descent dedicated when he is dead it shall be sent powerful comfort.

Or:

Appointed one human being smith praise of god descent dedicated man of the dart wild man rest.

Or:

Appointed one human being possession praise of god descent dedicated he shall send his death powerful rest.

Not very exciting sentences, just odd.

(October 18, 2014 at 5:18 am)Vivalarevolution Wrote: Hmm cool insight.

However you're comments on hebrews in Egypt and mt sinai is not verifiable unless we had a time machine or more proof

Oh yeah and this doesn't prove anything , just wanted to write-
The pentateuch is only some history. Half of it is instructions on how to act. The real history starts in Joshua. Just wanted to put it out there.
10th century BC hebrew- it's on the gezer calendar in pheonician or proto hebrew

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoenician_...escendants

Quote:The Paleo-Hebrew alphabet, used to write early Hebrew, was a regional offshoot of Phoenician; it is nearly identical to the Phoenician one. The Samaritan alphabet, used by the Samaritans, is a direct descendant of the Paleo-Hebrew alphabet.

The Aramaic alphabet, used to write Aramaic, is another descendant of Phoenician. Aramaic being the lingua franca of the Middle East, it was widely adopted. It later split off (due to power/political borders) into a number of related alphabets, including the Hebrew alphabet, the Syriac alphabet, and the Nabataean alphabet, which in its cursive form became an ancestor of Arabic, currently used in Arabic-speaking countries from North Africa through the Levant to Iraq and the Gulf region, as well as in Iran, Afghanistan, Pakistan and other countries for other languages.

Hair-splitting for your bible, now.

Here is what I get, looking up each word you disagreed with-
Seth- appointed / placed
Enoch- (verb) inaugurate/ train/ dedicate
Kennan- sorrow/ to chant a dirge/ dirge
Mahalalel- (I agree with your find)-praise of God and it does not change the meaning of the name sentence
Lamech- humilation/ for lowering
So the meaning of the sentence stands for me.
Most meanings came from this web site-
http://www.abarim-publications.com/Meani...lalel.html