(October 22, 2014 at 3:32 pm)Lek Wrote:

(October 22, 2014 at 1:49 pm)FatAndFaithless Wrote: He didn't die, he was fine. Unless you're claiming God was dead for 3 days.

He was dead for three days. Otherwise, he wouldn't haven risen from the dead.

Your math skills are poor. Friday mid-day to Sunday morning is less that 2 days.

I think this is indicative of your mental processes: you parrot things without ever actually having thought about them.

(October 22, 2014 at 3:53 pm)Lek Wrote: Of course it sounds lame to a non-believer. As many times as I say this, it just goes over your heads. Those little children died in an instant. After that, no more suffering, just eternal happiness. Since you only believe in this world, to you he took away everything. We don't live primarily for this world. Of course we see things differently.

Um, yeah, as a side note, that's one of the more creepy and disturbing things about Islamo-Christianity. If you really believe that this life is just a transitory waiting station to one of two eternal destinations, it kind of devalues life and trivializes prematurely ending another's. I'm not saying that you would be likely to kill anyone but the more disturbed fanatics, hopped up on extraordinary faith and conviction reveal the danger of seeing reality that way.

Quote:Yes. Of course I see why it seems crazy to a non-believer. We have different worldviews.

That point has already been agreed upon. My question was why your god can't forgive without killing himself first?

(October 22, 2014 at 2:11 pm)Aoi Magi Wrote:

(October 22, 2014 at 1:46 pm)Lek Wrote: How about him becoming man and and suffering death on the cross so that everyone who ever lived on the earth could have eternal happiness? Doesn't that portray a loving God?

Nope.
He could've forgiven without all that shenanigan just as easily.

ive been over this god cannot do that one simple thing humans can it is forgive

(October 22, 2014 at 7:28 pm)Chas Wrote: Your math skills are poor. Friday mid-day to Sunday morning is less that 2 days.

I think this is indicative of your mental processes: you parrot things without ever actually having thought about them.

Christians are too busy praying to learn math. By the way, you're really rude and insulting.

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(October 22, 2014 at 9:54 pm)dyresand Wrote: ive been over this god cannot do that one simple thing humans can it is forgive

That's what Jesus was all about--forgiveness.

(October 22, 2014 at 10:17 pm)Lek Wrote:

(October 22, 2014 at 7:28 pm)Chas Wrote: Your math skills are poor. Friday mid-day to Sunday morning is less that 2 days.

I think this is indicative of your mental processes: you parrot things without ever actually having thought about them.

Christians are too busy praying to learn math. By the way, you're really rude and insulting.

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(October 22, 2014 at 9:54 pm)dyresand Wrote: ive been over this god cannot do that one simple thing humans can it is forgive

That's what Jesus was all about--forgiveness.

jesus wouldn't need to die. ill give you some in sight on my other post why god is evil. he needs a sacrifice for everything let alone himself because in those 3 days he was "dead" he could have easily said in "omniscient" form.
literally what god could have said - "i forgive you and all of you for you do not no what you do. you are still children and have much to learn and i will be there to guide you."

(October 22, 2014 at 10:17 pm)Lek Wrote: That's what Jesus was all about--forgiveness.

Why did your god need to become his own son and sacrifice himself as a requirement to the act of forgiving?

(October 22, 2014 at 10:34 pm)DeistPaladin Wrote:

(October 22, 2014 at 10:17 pm)Lek Wrote: That's what Jesus was all about--forgiveness.

Why did your god need to become his own son and sacrifice himself as a requirement to the act of forgiving?

Because god is flawed and he himself cannot forgive.
nor he wants to forgive because god is arrogant and always wants to be right and get everything he wants like a spoiled child. he exercises his power in the bible knowing we couldn't fight back.

(October 22, 2014 at 10:28 pm)dyresand Wrote: jesus wouldn't need to die. ill give you some in sight on my other post why god is evil. he needs a sacrifice for everything let alone himself because in those 3 days he was "dead" he could have easily said in "omniscient" form.
literally what god could have said - "i forgive you and all of you for you do not no what you do. you are still children and have much to learn and i will be there to guide you."

It's about love and justice. God is just as well as loving. The sacrifices in the old testament were symbolic. They pointed to the necessary sacrifice that Jesus would make for us all. If we're "in Christ", we're no longer guilty. Justice has been done.

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(October 22, 2014 at 10:34 pm)DeistPaladin Wrote: Why did your god need to become his own son and sacrifice himself as a requirement to the act of forgiving?

Because we we were incapable of doing what Jesus needed to accomplish--leading a sinless life and then taking on the sins of all people. Only Jesus could accomplish that.

(October 22, 2014 at 11:08 pm)Lek Wrote:

(October 22, 2014 at 10:28 pm)dyresand Wrote: jesus wouldn't need to die. ill give you some in sight on my other post why god is evil. he needs a sacrifice for everything let alone himself because in those 3 days he was "dead" he could have easily said in "omniscient" form.
literally what god could have said - "i forgive you and all of you for you do not no what you do. you are still children and have much to learn and i will be there to guide you."

It's about love and justice. God is just as well as loving. The sacrifices in the old testament were symbolic. They pointed to the necessary sacrifice that Jesus would make for us all. If we're "in Christ", we're no longer guilty. Justice has been done.

its still not worth the sacrifice.... is a human sacrifice really all that worth it to save humanity when a simple i forgive you can do just as much? why go through all the trouble getting a woman pregnant then have her son die years later... it makes not logical since because god could and did not forgive us. god cannot directly forgive he sends human here to us for us to throw our sins on that person without any moral reasoning to say jesus take my sin so i can go to heaven. when in reality you pay for your sins you should own up to your own sins and ask for forgiveness to a fellow human not god because god cannot directly forgive you, he would say dump it on jesus and move along...

(October 22, 2014 at 11:08 pm)Lek Wrote: Because we we were incapable of doing what Jesus needed to accomplish--leading a sinless life and then taking on the sins of all people. Only Jesus could accomplish that.

What does any of this even mean?

Let's take the "sinless life" part first. As I understand it, and please correct me if you have a different take, that "sin" is defined as acting contrary to the will of your god. The theory is when we fail to do what your god commands or we break one of your god's laws, we have "sinned". Correct?

So leading a "sinless life" would be defined as leading a life that perfectly conforms to the will of this god of yours.

So saying Jesus lived a "sinless life" is saying that Jesus lived his life as Jesus wanted to. It becomes a meaningless tautology. To say that Jesus was without sin is to say that Jesus conformed to his own will. Jesus is a bit like Popeye then? "I am what I am".

"I'm Jesus of Nazareth and I yam what I yam"




Moving on, we come to the part about gathering up all this sin and taking it upon himself. This is really making a simple process of forgiveness awfully complex.

First of all, when I forgive someone, it's pretty straightforward. I forgive them. It's a decision to let go of resentment or any desire to somehow even the score. It's a decision against any notion that this person owes you anything more for what was done or not done in the past. That's it. Why does your god need to make it so complicated?

And what does this "taking on the sins" mean?

When we act contrary to the wishes of your god, does that produces some sort of negative ectoplasmic goo that accumulates in some unseen parallel ethereal plane? If so, how does that prevent me from going somewhere else, specifically Heaven? Perhaps it clings to us somehow, like dirt? Well, that would fit the common metaphor I hear from Christians. So Jesus needs us to take a shower and clean up before we meet him in Heaven? Fair enough. It wouldn't do to have all this ectoplasmic filth stinking up the place. So how do I clean up so that I'm presentable to him?

Oh that's right, he needs to suffer and die on a cross. So, his suffering and dying works the ethereal shower how? What's the mechanic here? Can we get some clue on the cause and effect?

Well, we're washed clean by the blood of Christ, or so I'm told. You know, getting clean by washing myself in blood isn't working for me as a metaphor, but let that go. Does the blood from the cross trickle through the Ethereal Plane and wash away all the ecoplasmic sin-filth? But I guess it only works somehow for those who believe something seemingly ridiculous based on the say-so of one particular religion, chosen among many others?

Perhaps the ethereal divine blood cleanser is powered by gullibility? I use that word because, put bluntly, that's what faith is, believing what you're told for no reason and against all reason. Another word for this is gullibility. But then why does it particularly have to be gullibility only with regard to one thing in particular? If I believe in healing crystals, emails from Nigeria or homeopathy, would that kind of gullibility suffice? Why does it only work if you're gullible about one particular claim?

The suffering of Jesus as the mechanic by which sin can be forgiven reminds of of a Monte Python skit where someone says "mattress" causing Mr. Lambert to put a bucket over his head and he won't remove the bucket until someone gets in the fish tank and sings.





"Did someone bear false witness?"

"Yes, Lord."

"I did ask you not to bear false witness didn't I?"

"Sorry Lord"

"Now I have to get on the cross and bleed"

"Sorry Lord"

"Oh dear, it's not working. Someone beat me with a whip."