(October 30, 2014 at 4:37 pm)Chas Wrote:

(October 30, 2014 at 3:57 pm)Mister Agenda Wrote: camera

Yah, alcohol goes back to the Stone Age. Five out of six ain't bad, though.

Umm, no. Not the camera, not the guitar; coffee? Ethiopia. Attributing any of theses things to Muslims is inconsequential. They have nothing to do with Islam. It's a big 'so what?'.

Wasn't Alhazan the first to describe camera obscura (and also proved that light travels in straight lines)? That's what I get from going by memory, I suppose.

From brief Googling, it looks like the Italians get the sixth string credit.

I agree with the 'so what'. It has no relevance to the topic at hand that I can discern. Reminds me of when the Soviets were known for claiming they invented everything (in fairness, they invented a lot of stuff) as though it meant communism was superior.

About alcohol ; it exists in outer space by the way & also on earth in a natural form. Still we were the ones passing it to europe.
There's a documentary called "ancient drugs" on youtube. Watch it.

What I literally mean is "making it" not for drinking, but manufacturing it as a solution, with a chemical formula. But I always love how people check Aladdin's posts looking for holes. Aladdin is very happy.

Though, that definition for "khawarij" :

Quote: Khawarij is that which that which is done by professed Muslims that is outside of the bounds of Islam, like Muslims drinking alcohol or stealing.

Khawarij or "Khareji" is a very big term, and used specifically & exactly to describe "religious bandits" who refuse to obey a legitimate elected (chosen by Shura) leader.
The first ever, the very unique ones, actually overthrew " Ali Ibn Abu Talib ", the prophet's cousin. Some of them "raised the Quran on the tips of their swords" ; as a religious symbol -just like ISIS-.

Also, a side note ; the reason behind the religious difference between Sunna & Shia is this

Sadly, and only if you read history evenly, the first person to invoke this habit, was the prophet's wife "Aisha" ; a bloody battle took place between her forces & Ali's forces , leading to thousands of deaths from both sides..

This link has a very very interesting read, especially in the "battle" section.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Camel

They immediately ended up their conflict after the battle.

Sunna say both Ali and Aisha are above our judgement. That's their own business.
Shia curse Aisha & accuse her of being a traitor.

I personally believe no human is above mistake, even Aisha, even Ali.

You can understand the sunni/shia conflict, since shia still grief over Ali's death at the hands of the Khawarej day & night, and curse anybody who was close to the incident, let us not mention the kingship of the ummayads which forged Islam to suit their needs.

Ah, just saying ><

(October 30, 2014 at 5:03 pm)AtlasS Wrote: What I literally mean is "making it" not for drinking, but manufacturing it as a solution, with a chemical formula. But I always love how people check Aladdin's posts looking for holes. Aladdin is very happy.

The Persian poet Hafiz might have disagreed with you. In his lyrics he was rather fond of wine.

(October 30, 2014 at 5:03 pm)AtlasS Wrote: About alcohol ; it exists in outer space by the way & also on earth in a natural form. Still we were the ones passing it to europe.
There's a documentary called "ancient drugs" on youtube. Watch it.

What I literally mean is "making it" not for drinking, but manufacturing it as a solution, with a chemical formula.

Would you please explain what you mean?

(October 30, 2014 at 4:52 pm)Mister Agenda Wrote:

(October 30, 2014 at 4:37 pm)Chas Wrote: Umm, no. Not the camera, not the guitar; coffee? Ethiopia. Attributing any of theses things to Muslims is inconsequential. They have nothing to do with Islam. It's a big 'so what?'.

Wasn't Alhazan the first to describe camera obscura (and also proved that light travels in straight lines)? That's what I get from going by memory, I suppose.

From brief Googling, it looks like the Italians get the sixth string credit.

I agree with the 'so what'. It has no relevance to the topic at hand that I can discern. Reminds me of when the Soviets were known for claiming they invented everything (in fairness, they invented a lot of stuff) as though it meant communism was superior.

COFFEE :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coffee#History

Quote:Historical transmission[edit]
The earliest credible evidence of either coffee drinking or knowledge of the coffee tree appears in the middle of the 15th century, in the Sufi Muslim monasteries around Mocha in Yemen.

Sweet history..

CAMERA :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camera#History
Okay I was wrong about the camera but muslims DID make a huge contribution to the field in the past..

Quote:In the tenth century, the Arabic scholar Ibn al-Haytham (Alhazen) also wrote about observing a solar eclipse through a pinhole,[13] and he described how a sharper image could be produced by making the opening of the pinhole smaller.

The link below offers more "real" documented stuff very fantastic read also.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Science_in_...vilization

By historical evidence, Muslims are awesome people. The dark ages weren't dark at all in the middle east to be honest.
Though now our dark ages begun.

(October 30, 2014 at 5:12 pm)AtlasS Wrote: By historical evidence, Muslims are awesome people. The dark ages weren't dark at all in the middle east to be honest.
Though now our dark ages begun.

Wikipedia Wrote:Science in the medieval Islamic world (also known, less accurately, as Islamic science or Arabic science) is the science developed and practised in the Islamic world during the Islamic Golden Age (c. 750 CE – c. 1258 CE). During this time, Indian, Asyriac, Iranian and Greek knowledge was translated into Arabic. These translations became a wellspring for scientific advances, by scientists from the Muslim ruled areas, during the Middle Ages.

Scientists within the Muslim ruled areas were of diverse ethnicities. Most were Persians, others were Moors, Berbers, Assyrians, Arabians,[4] and Egyptians. They were also from diverse religious backgrounds. Most were Muslims, but there were also some Christians, Jews and irreligious.

(October 30, 2014 at 5:09 pm)abaris Wrote:

(October 30, 2014 at 5:03 pm)AtlasS Wrote: What I literally mean is "making it" not for drinking, but manufacturing it as a solution, with a chemical formula. But I always love how people check Aladdin's posts looking for holes. Aladdin is very happy.

The Persian poet Hafiz might have disagreed with you. In his lyrics he was rather fond of wine.

making wine isn't making alcohol.

making this requires a chemist :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcohol

while making this requires a medieval peasant with head so heavy with stoo -or whatever the spelling is-
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wine

Pure alcohol exist in nature -just like the h2o you drink-.
for example, read this article :

http://researchnews.osu.edu/archive/beercld.htm

This is more fun :
http://io9.com/5911365/how-alcohol-is-fo...y-in-space

It's about the giant alcohol clouds flying in outer space.

That's why 1000 years ago, they didn't have "Gin" or "Vodka". They only had the regular stuff coming from fruit.

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(October 30, 2014 at 5:17 pm)Chas Wrote:

(October 30, 2014 at 5:12 pm)AtlasS Wrote: By historical evidence, Muslims are awesome people. The dark ages weren't dark at all in the middle east to be honest.
Though now our dark ages begun.

Wikipedia Wrote:Science in the medieval Islamic world (also known, less accurately, as Islamic science or Arabic science) is the science developed and practised in the Islamic world during the Islamic Golden Age (c. 750 CE – c. 1258 CE). During this time, Indian, Asyriac, Iranian and Greek knowledge was translated into Arabic. These translations became a wellspring for scientific advances, by scientists from the Muslim ruled areas, during the Middle Ages.

Scientists within the Muslim ruled areas were of diverse ethnicities. Most were Persians, others were Moors, Berbers, Assyrians, Arabians,[4] and Egyptians. They were also from diverse religious backgrounds. Most were Muslims, but there were also some Christians, Jews and irreligious.

Yep exactly ^_^

That's replying to the claims of atheists, who say muslims are killers & oppress non muslims. Obviously, Jews, atheists (the non believer kufarrrrrrssss), the christians, all were able to work & produce and even become famous & publish books. In a high standard of living.

DP: there's nothing wrong, in my mind, with your religious view informing your politics. That's very different to my point which is that religion shouldn't be regarded in a political context. For example: I might vote for something in line with my beliefs. I shouldn't vote for a system of judgement founded on belief. That would be entirely inappropriate and would rob the individual the freedom to come to any religious belief

(October 30, 2014 at 5:25 pm)fr0d0 Wrote: DP: there's nothing wrong, in my mind, with your religious view informing your politics. That's very different to my point which is that religion shouldn't be regarded in a political context. For example: I might vote for something in line with my beliefs. I shouldn't vote for a system of judgement founded on belief. That would be entirely inappropriate and would rob the individual the freedom to come to any religious belief

That is very well put.

(October 30, 2014 at 5:03 pm)AtlasS Wrote: About alcohol ; it exists in outer space by the way & also on earth in a natural form.

No kidding. Why do you suppose we don't already know that, and how is it relevant to the topic at hand?

(October 30, 2014 at 5:03 pm)AtlasS Wrote: Still we were the ones passing it to europe.

Funny, the Greeks were making wine centuries before Mohammed was born; and the earliest known (alcoholic) stills were in 12th Century Italy. The earliest known water distillation was in first century Greece.

(October 30, 2014 at 5:03 pm)AtlasS Wrote: There's a documentary called "ancient drugs" on youtube. Watch it.

No.

(October 30, 2014 at 5:03 pm)AtlasS Wrote: What I literally mean is "making it" not for drinking, but manufacturing it as a solution, with a chemical formula. But I always love how people check Aladdin's posts looking for holes. Aladdin is very happy.

Have you considered saying what you literally mean in the first place? And I'm still mystified at what relevance to the topic you think this all has.

(October 30, 2014 at 5:03 pm)AtlasS Wrote: Though, that definition for "khawarij" :

Quote: Khawarij is that which that which is done by professed Muslims that is outside of the bounds of Islam, like Muslims drinking alcohol or stealing.

Khawarij or "Khareji" is a very big term, and used specifically & exactly to describe "religious bandits" who refuse to obey a legitimate elected (chosen by Shura) leader.

Thanks for the expansion. I appreciate you lending your expertise.

(October 30, 2014 at 5:03 pm)AtlasS Wrote: The first ever, the very unique ones, actually overthrew " Ali Ibn Abu Talib ", the prophet's cousin. Some of them "raised the Quran on the tips of their swords" ; as a religious symbol -just like ISIS-.

Also, a side note ; the reason behind the religious difference between Sunna & Shia is this

Sadly, and only if you read history evenly, the first person to invoke this habit, was the prophet's wife "Aisha" ; a bloody battle took place between her forces & Ali's forces , leading to thousands of deaths from both sides..

This link has a very very interesting read, especially in the "battle" section.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Camel

They immediately ended up their conflict after the battle.

Sunna say both Ali and Aisha are above our judgement. That's their own business.
Shia curse Aisha & accuse her of being a traitor.

I personally believe no human is above mistake, even Aisha, even Ali.

You can understand the sunni/shia conflict, since shia still grief over Ali's death at the hands of the Khawarej day & night, and curse anybody who was close to the incident, let us not mention the kingship of the ummayads which forged Islam to suit their needs.

Ah, just saying ><

Now THAT was relevant. Thank you.

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(October 30, 2014 at 5:21 pm)AtlasS Wrote: That's replying to the claims of atheists, who say muslims are killers & oppress non muslims.

I'm an atheist, and I don't claim that. Q.E.D.