(October 30, 2014 at 2:20 pm)alpha male Wrote: The logic is apparent.

Not to me.

Quote:Images aren't drawn randomly.

Correct.

Quote:They're intended to have effects on real live people.

Correct,

Quote:As Alice noted, games could be played with characters made only of basic shapes.

Correct.

...and your point is...?

(third request, hopefully that's the charm)

Quote:you lose the Biblical argument.

Quote:Instead of lists of steps, just give the verses that say sex is only for procreation...

Christians who believe it use the story of Onan and the verses in the NT that I referred to to underscore how Christianity demonizes sex.

(October 30, 2014 at 3:02 pm)Losty Wrote: Absolutely no one ever needs to rape anyone ever regardless of how they interpret the bible

I agree.

Quote:I'm so happy for you that your wife enjoys sex with you. I'm so happy for her that you enjoy sex the way she enjoys it.

Me too.

Quote:Read the verse jackass. Not that the true sickos don't just stop reading before that anyways. The only consent required in the verse is for time. So once you have free time your spouse is biblically permitted to smash your face into the headboard and violently rape you while blood pours down your face onto the sheets. Because your body doesn't belong to you and god doesn't give a shit if you like sex like that. It's disgusting.

Except, that's not about the Bible. That's about the husband being a true sicko. It's not like a loving husband got to that verse and began violently raping his wife. A man who would do those things would have done them with or without that verse.

Quote:Why do you make this assumption that all Christians are good people? You can easily adhere to that verse and justifiably rape your spouse just because you want to.

There's more to the Bible than that verse. There are passages that say a man should love his wife to the point of giving his life for her if necessary. A man like you describe would ignore those passages.

Quote:Let's say a woman is waiting in heels and lingerie for her husband, because like a good little wife she wants to please him. Let's say when he sees her he lifts her up by her throat and slams her into the wall, rips off her lingerie, and takes her violently all the while she is is begging him not to hurt her. Let's say she's not into that stuff and her pleas are genuine. Her husband hasn't broken any rules according to that verse.

Again, the Bible says more regarding marriage than that verse.

Eph 5
25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself for her, 26 that He might sanctify and cleanse her with the washing of water by the word, 27 that He might present her to Himself a glorious church, not having spot or wrinkle or any such thing, but that she should be holy and without blemish. 28 So husbands ought to love their own wives as their own bodies; he who loves his wife loves himself. 29 For no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as the Lord does the church. 30 For we are members of His body, of His flesh and of His bones. 31 “For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.” 32 This is a great mystery, but I speak concerning Christ and the church. 33 Nevertheless let each one of you in particular so love his own wife as himself, and let the wife see that she respects her husband.

The violent scenarios you give aren't reconcilable with this passage. Here's a few more:

Col 3
19 Husbands, love your wives and do not be bitter toward them.

1 Pet 3
7 Husbands, likewise, dwell with them with understanding, giving honor to the wife, as to the weaker vessel, and as being heirs together of the grace of life, that your prayers may not be hindered.

Prov 5
18 Let your fountain be blessed,
And rejoice with the wife of your youth.
19 As a loving deer and a graceful doe,
Let her breasts satisfy you at all times;
And always be enraptured with her love.

---

(October 30, 2014 at 3:35 pm)DeistPaladin Wrote: Not to me.

Quote:Images aren't drawn randomly.

Correct.

Quote:They're intended to have effects on real live people.

Correct,

Quote:As Alice noted, games could be played with characters made only of basic shapes.

Correct.

...and your point is...?

That fantasy images have real life effects.

Quote:Christians who believe it use the story of Onan and the verses in the NT that I referred to to underscore how Christianity demonizes sex.

What do they/you think about Song of Songs?

(October 30, 2014 at 4:10 pm)alpha male Wrote: That fantasy images have real life effects.

Non Sequitur. Explain your logic.

Quote:What do they/you think about Song of Songs?

What do they think? You'll have to ask them what they think. Most likely they've never read it. Like most Christians, they've only read the parts that agree with them. Few have read it completely.

What do I think? I think it's an example of how the Bible contradicts itself.

(October 30, 2014 at 4:10 pm)alpha male Wrote:

(October 30, 2014 at 3:02 pm)Losty Wrote: Absolutely no one ever needs to rape anyone ever regardless of how they interpret the bible

I agree.

Quote:I'm so happy for you that your wife enjoys sex with you. I'm so happy for her that you enjoy sex the way she enjoys it.

Me too.

Quote:Read the verse jackass. Not that the true sickos don't just stop reading before that anyways. The only consent required in the verse is for time. So once you have free time your spouse is biblically permitted to smash your face into the headboard and violently rape you while blood pours down your face onto the sheets. Because your body doesn't belong to you and god doesn't give a shit if you like sex like that. It's disgusting.

Except, that's not about the Bible. That's about the husband being a true sicko. It's not like a loving husband got to that verse and began violently raping his wife. A man who would do those things would have done them with or without that verse.

Quote:Why do you make this assumption that all Christians are good people? You can easily adhere to that verse and justifiably rape your spouse just because you want to.

There's more to the Bible than that verse. There are passages that say a man should love his wife to the point of giving his life for her if necessary. A man like you describe would ignore those passages.

Quote:Let's say a woman is waiting in heels and lingerie for her husband, because like a good little wife she wants to please him. Let's say when he sees her he lifts her up by her throat and slams her into the wall, rips off her lingerie, and takes her violently all the while she is is begging him not to hurt her. Let's say she's not into that stuff and her pleas are genuine. Her husband hasn't broken any rules according to that verse.

Again, the Bible says more regarding marriage than that verse.

Eph 5
25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself for her, 26 that He might sanctify and cleanse her with the washing of water by the word, 27 that He might present her to Himself a glorious church, not having spot or wrinkle or any such thing, but that she should be holy and without blemish. 28 So husbands ought to love their own wives as their own bodies; he who loves his wife loves himself. 29 For no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as the Lord does the church. 30 For we are members of His body, of His flesh and of His bones. 31 “For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.” 32 This is a great mystery, but I speak concerning Christ and the church. 33 Nevertheless let each one of you in particular so love his own wife as himself, and let the wife see that she respects her husband.

The violent scenarios you give aren't reconcilable with this passage.

You're missing the point. I'm saying I hate the verse because bad people use it to justify rape. I hate it because good (albeit misguided) people are lead to believe that they have no choice but to allow their spouses to rape them because of this verse. It doesn't matter how you think it should be used. It doesn't matter if it's meant to be used for that. It only matters that it is used for precisely that. I hate the verse. It makes me sick.

(October 30, 2014 at 10:52 pm)Losty Wrote: You're missing the point. I'm saying I hate the verse because bad people use it to justify rape. I hate it because good (albeit misguided) people are lead to believe that they have no choice but to allow their spouses to rape them because of this verse. It doesn't matter how you think it should be used. It doesn't matter if it's meant to be used for that. It only matters that it is used for precisely that. I hate the verse. It makes me sick.

I'm not missing the point, I'm disagreeing with it. My point is that, when bad people use something in an evil way for which the thing was not intended, logically the blame goes to the bad person, not the misused thing.

(October 31, 2014 at 7:38 am)alpha male Wrote: I'm not missing the point, I'm disagreeing with it. My point is that, when bad people use something in an evil way for which the thing was not intended, logically the blame goes to the bad person, not the misused thing.

This is another example of the skeptic who reads what's there and the Christians who interpret what they read to mean what they already believe.

Quote:1COR 7:4 The wife hath not power of her own body, but the husband:

How is that not intended to establish that the man owns the woman's body? That is what it says, after all. Now you can spin and try to come up with obtuse interpretations to explain it all away but that's what the verse says in clear black and white.

If the passage says the man owns the woman's body, and it clearly does, then it's also saying he can rape her. After all, it's his body. He owns it. He can do with it as he pleases.

Spin, deny, put your hands over your ears and scream "la la la" all you like. When you're done, the verses will still be the same.

(October 31, 2014 at 7:38 am)alpha male Wrote:

(October 30, 2014 at 10:52 pm)Losty Wrote: You're missing the point. I'm saying I hate the verse because bad people use it to justify rape. I hate it because good (albeit misguided) people are lead to believe that they have no choice but to allow their spouses to rape them because of this verse. It doesn't matter how you think it should be used. It doesn't matter if it's meant to be used for that. It only matters that it is used for precisely that. I hate the verse. It makes me sick.

I'm not missing the point, I'm disagreeing with it. My point is that, when bad people use something in an evil way for which the thing was not intended, logically the blame goes to the bad person, not the misused thing.

What the hell. No. The verse itself is bad. The blame goes to whoever wrote such a shitty verse that can so easily be interpreted as permission to rape your spouse. I actually think your interpretation of it makes much less sense. Besides I just said that I wish people wouldn't quote the verse so much. It haunted my life for way too many years and I hate it.

I love you losty ...just saying

(October 31, 2014 at 1:36 pm)DramaQueen Wrote: I love you losty ...just saying

Thanks *hugs*

(October 31, 2014 at 9:53 am)DeistPaladin Wrote: This is another example of the skeptic who reads what's there and the Christians who interpret what they read to mean what they already believe.

Quote:1COR 7:4 The wife hath not power of her own body, but the husband:

How is that not intended to establish that the man owns the woman's body? That is what it says, after all. Now you can spin and try to come up with obtuse interpretations to explain it all away but that's what the verse says in clear black and white.

If the passage says the man owns the woman's body, and it clearly does, then it's also saying he can rape her. After all, it's his body. He owns it. He can do with it as he pleases.

Spin, deny, put your hands over your ears and scream "la la la" all you like. When you're done, the verses will still be the same.

Verses? You mean, rather, half of one verse. That verse alone refutes your position:

4 For the wife does not have authority over her own body, but the husband does. Likewise the husband does not have authority over his own body, but the wife does.

By your method of interpretation - completely ignoring context - the woman can tell him to stay away from her. After all, it's her body. She owns it. She can do with it as she pleases.

Or, we could look at a number of passages regarding marriage and sex in order to get an overall framework on the subject, and interpret individual verses - or half verses - accordingly.

Prov 5
18 Let your fountain be blessed,
And rejoice with the wife of your youth.
19 As a loving deer and a graceful doe,
Let her breasts satisfy you at all times;
And always be enraptured with her love.

Song of Songs
2 Let him kiss me with the kisses of his mouth!
For your love is better than wine;

And 8 more chapters of the like.

1 Cor 7
1 Now concerning the matters about which you wrote: “It is good for a man not to have sexual relations with a woman.” 2 But because of the temptation to sexual immorality, each man should have his own wife and each woman her own husband. 3 The husband should give to his wife her conjugal rights, and likewise the wife to her husband. 4 For the wife does not have authority over her own body, but the husband does. Likewise the husband does not have authority over his own body, but the wife does. 5 Do not deprive one another, except perhaps by agreement for a limited time, that you may devote yourselves to prayer; but then come together again, so that Satan may not tempt you because of your lack of self-control.

Eph 5
25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself for her, 26 that He might sanctify and cleanse her with the washing of water by the word, 27 that He might present her to Himself a glorious church, not having spot or wrinkle or any such thing, but that she should be holy and without blemish. 28 So husbands ought to love their own wives as their own bodies; he who loves his wife loves himself. 29 For no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as the Lord does the church. 30 For we are members of His body, of His flesh and of His bones. 31 “For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.” 32 This is a great mystery, but I speak concerning Christ and the church. 33 Nevertheless let each one of you in particular so love his own wife as himself, and let the wife see that she respects her husband.

Col 3
19 Husbands, love your wives and do not be bitter toward them.

1 Pet 3
7 Husbands, likewise, dwell with them with understanding, giving honor to the wife, as to the weaker vessel, and as being heirs together of the grace of life, that your prayers may not be hindered.

No reasonable person who reads all that is going to come away from it thinking there's nothing wrong with a man lifting his wife up by her throat, slamming her into the wall, ripping off her lingerie, and taking her violently all the while she is is begging him not to hurt her.