Quote:those who commit stupidity in its name.

Or worse, murder.

(July 7, 2010 at 4:52 pm)Paul the Human Wrote: This whole 'bigotry or not bigotry' tangent is pointless. When someone says "Muslims disgust me"... what they mean is that Islam disgusts them. The religion and those who follow it blindly are deemed 'disgusting'. It is not racism by any stretch. It is the religion and those who commit stupidity in its name that are being maligned and discriminated against. Is it generalizing? Yes... but in this case, it is a justifiable generalization. Islam = Bad. Christianity = Bad. We all preach those feelings.

One problem is that some of ya'll tend to take things too literally when, if you'd think about it for a second, you'd know what the other person is really saying. Casual speech shouldn't be taken so literally. Actual meaning is meant to be inferred when someone is speaking casually; e.g. 'I hate Muslims' doesn't mean that I hate every single individual Muslim in the world. It means that I hate the Muslim religion and those who commit stupidity in its name.

That may be what was meant, but clearly quite a few of us misinterpreted what was said. If it was intended to say, 'Islam and its extreme adherents are disgusting', then saying that directly would have avoided this pointless tangent. Were I to say, 'Milkmen are stupid', it wouldn't be interpreted as, 'The action of delivering milk is stupid.' Also, is there such a thing as a 'justifiable generalisation'? It's something worthy of discussion, but surely the whole point of avoiding stereotypes is that they aren't true. Some may be more accurate or widely applicable than others, but, if they were true, they wouldn't be called stereotypes. 'All generalisations (except this one) are false' is the only true generalisation.

(July 7, 2010 at 5:20 pm)The Omnissiunt One Wrote: Were I to say, 'Milkmen are stupid', it wouldn't be interpreted as, 'The action of delivering milk is stupid.'

That would be a more likely conclusion than assuming that you literally think that every individual milkman in the world is stupid. That would be quite a leap. Personally, I would take that to (probably) mean that there is something about the state of being 'a milkman' that bothers you, but I would never jump to any conclusion as to what that might be.

(July 7, 2010 at 5:20 pm)The Omnissiunt One Wrote: Also, is there such a thing as a 'justifiable generalisation'? It's something worthy of discussion, but surely the whole point of avoiding stereotypes is that they aren't true. Some may be more accurate or widely applicable than others, but, if they were true, they wouldn't be called stereotypes. 'All generalisations (except this one) are false' is the only true generalisation.

Stereotypes are based on truth. Sorry. If it weren't true often enough to have become a stereotype, it would just be a non-sequitur. Like... 'People that use Firefox all have blonde hair'.

And what I mean by 'justifiable generalization' is this: If I say that Muslims are terrorists... I obviously do not mean that every single Muslim in the world is a terrorist. At least not when I'm speaking casually in every day speech. The word Terrorist (at this time in history) is synonymous with Islam in the minds of the masses. Tell me I'm wrong. When you hear the word Terrorist, who do you picture?

That doesn't mean that you think that they are ALL terrorists.

Islam is not a peaceful religion. I was born muslim family, but i'am atheist, now. I did read Quran, very times. I was fundamentalist muslim, formerly; thence, i know Islam very well. There are very verses in Quran; about kiil, murder and this verses is bad.

--- I don't know english so much, thence i can not write very well. I'm sory. Maybe, i can learn english in this web site.

(I'm from Turkey)

(July 7, 2010 at 6:03 pm)Xinharmonisi Wrote: Islam is not a peaceful religion. I was born muslim family, but i'am atheist, now. I did read Quran, very times. I was fundamentalist muslim, formerly; thence, i know Islam very well. There are very verses in Quran; about kiil, murder and this verses is bad.

--- I don't know english so much, thence i can not write very well. I'm sory. Maybe, i can learn english in this web site.

(I'm from Turkey)

Welcome aboard, glad you made it out of Islam alive.

Quote:I don't know english so much, thence i can not write very well.

Actually, you are making yourself perfectly clear.

Welcome.

(July 7, 2010 at 6:03 pm)Xinharmonisi Wrote: Islam is not a peaceful religion. I was born muslim family, but i'am atheist, now. I did read Quran, very times. I was fundamentalist muslim, formerly; thence, i know Islam very well. There are very verses in Quran; about kiil, murder and this verses is bad.

--- I don't know english so much, thence i can not write very well. I'm sory. Maybe, i can learn english in this web site.

(I'm from Turkey)

I had no trouble understanding your writing. If it will help if I ever quote you, as above, I'll fix 'er up so you can have an idea on how to write in english a bit more properly. Kind of like this;

(July 7, 2010 at 6:03 pm)Xinharmonisi Wrote: Islam is not a peaceful religion. I was born in a muslim family, but I'm atheist now. I did read the Quran, many times. I was a fundamentalist muslim, formerly; hence, I know Islam very well. There are many verses in the Quran; about killing, murder and these verses are very bad.

--- I don't know english so much, hence I can not write very well. I'm sory. Maybe, I can learn english on this web site.

I say 'a bit' as I'm not an english major and have been know to rape the english language from time to time.

(July 7, 2010 at 6:03 pm)Xinharmonisi Wrote: Islam is not a peaceful religion. I was born muslim family, but i'am atheist, now. I did read Quran, very times. I was fundamentalist muslim, formerly; thence, i know Islam very well. There are very verses in Quran; about kiil, murder and this verses is bad.

--- I don't know english so much, thence i can not write very well. I'm sory. Maybe, i can learn english in this web site.

(I'm from Turkey)

You made your point, that;s good enough for now

Welcome to the forums.

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(July 7, 2010 at 11:36 pm)Dotard Wrote:

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(July 7, 2010 at 6:03 pm)Xinharmonisi Wrote: Islam is not a peaceful religion. I was born muslim family, but i'am atheist, now. I did read Quran, very times. I was fundamentalist muslim, formerly; thence, i know Islam very well. There are very verses in Quran; about kiil, murder and this verses is bad.

--- I don't know english so much, thence i can not write very well. I'm sory. Maybe, i can learn english in this web site.

(I'm from Turkey)

I had no trouble understanding your writing. If it will help if I ever quote you, as above, I'll fix 'er up so you can have an idea on how to write in english a bit more properly. Kind of like this;

(July 7, 2010 at 6:03 pm)Xinharmonisi Wrote: Islam is not a peaceful religion. I was born in a muslim family, but I'm atheist now. I did read the Quran, many times. I was a fundamentalist muslim, formerly; hence, I know Islam very well. There are many verses in the Quran; about killing, murder and these verses are very bad.

--- I don't know english so much, hence I can not write very well. I'm sory. Maybe, I can learn english on this web site.

I say 'a bit' as I'm not an english major and have been know to rape the english language from time to time.

---

your English isn't much better

Xinharmonisi- hi, Yeah what you said was understood. I tend to be hard to understand when I am typing, so if people can understand you I think i'm safe. So, hi, welcome, stuff like that.

Paul Wrote:When someone says "Muslims disgust me"... what they mean is that Islam disgusts them

When I said whatever I said, I just wanted to make sure that anyone browsing the forums didn't think we were bigots. I figure that it what was intended, but I think that point has been made clear.

(July 7, 2010 at 5:38 pm)Paul the Human Wrote: That would be a more likely conclusion than assuming that you literally think that every individual milkman in the world is stupid. That would be quite a leap. Personally, I would take that to (probably) mean that there is something about the state of being 'a milkman' that bothers you, but I would never jump to any conclusion as to what that might be.

Really? You'd think I meant 'Delivering milk is stupid' as opposed to 'Every milkman is stupid' or at least 'Most milkmen ar stupid'? Well, I suppose we all interpret things in different ways. In perhaps a more relevant analogy, if I said, 'Creationists are stupid', whilst that might imply that creationism is itself stupid, you would certainly interpret it as a personal attack on creationists as people, a comment about their IQ.

Quote:Stereotypes are based on truth. Sorry. If it weren't true often enough to have become a stereotype, it would just be a non-sequitur. Like... 'People that use Firefox all have blonde hair'.

Obviously, there had to be a reason at one time for stereotypes to arise. However, we have to bear in mind that things may change over time, or that a particular conception of a certain group, for whatever reason, happens to have become prominent in the public perception, when there are other conceptions which may be more accurate. For example, go to France and you won't see people riding round on bicycles with onions round their necks. Not in Paris, anyway.

Quote:And what I mean by 'justifiable generalization' is this: If I say that Muslims are terrorists... I obviously do not mean that every single Muslim in the world is a terrorist. At least not when I'm speaking casually in every day speech. The word Terrorist (at this time in history) is synonymous with Islam in the minds of the masses. Tell me I'm wrong. When you hear the word Terrorist, who do you picture?

Of course terrorism is almost universally synonymous with Islam. Probably most terrorists are Muslim. That doesn't say anything about how many Muslims are terrorists. Nor does my conception of Jamaicans as a bong-smoking, limboing people necessarily have any bearing upon reality.