Void -

Let's just agree to disagree. I still don't understand why the need to have me share your views, it shouldn't make any difference to you.

(July 19, 2010 at 9:13 pm)Godhead Wrote: Let's just agree to disagree.

I knew it, you dishonest little snake, you don't actually want to examine your beliefs and you're too much of a spineless sack to admit it.

Quote: I still don't understand why the need to have me share your views, it shouldn't make any difference to you.

I don't want to, or need to, have you share my beliefs. Want I want is to have a proper discussion about what you believe.

Now, once again:

Can you please describe the methodology you used in reaching the conclusion "god=universe=us".

Void -

I'm not sure what you want, we went over that before, didn't we?

(July 19, 2010 at 9:23 pm)Godhead Wrote: Void -

I'm not sure what you want, we went over that before, didn't we?

All you have said previously is that you believe in God because it feels right.

Is that the totality of your reasons for believing in God?

Void -

Not exactly but we did cover all that before.

(July 19, 2010 at 9:27 pm)Godhead Wrote: Void -

Not exactly but we did cover all that before.

We only covered the 'emotional' reasoning.

Do you have any other reasons for believing in God? What are they?

Just to make sure this post isn't lost in the recent flurry between Godhead and Void, I'll repost.

(July 19, 2010 at 8:05 pm)Godhead Wrote: I feel that what atheists ask which is impractical and impossible is for me to prove that god exists. But I can't do that. And the reason, on the surface, why atheists would ask in the first place, in the knowledge that I can't prove that god exists, is to demonstrate that I can't prove that god exists, ie prove a point. But that's a given, we know that. So underneath the surface, I think the real reason is to ridicule. The problem with that, apart from the fact that it achieves nothing, is that I don't feel any ridicule at all. I'm aware of the attempt but it has no emotional effect on me, so as an end goal on the part of the atheist, it's futile. So, if an atheist asks me to prove that god exists, the only appropriate response is : "You prove it" (as in, ask a silly question, get a silly answer). According to my belief, god doesn't provide anything. Why do you ask me that? (I'm sensing an undercurrent in your posts, namely that you seem to be equating theism per se with christianity - I understand that, but please bear in mind that I'm not a christian).

It wasn't my intention to give any such undercurrent, as I've attempted to make clear where I understand your beliefs and others to lie.
Still, you and I have made it very clear to one another that god's existence cannot be proven. I believe I can safely say that from now on, this will be an understood point between us. The reason atheists typically go to this arguement is because the only way to prove that he exists is to prove that he has made some foot print somewhere. Anywhere. At any point in time in history. Atheists point to the lack of any foot print to empirically prove that there is no proof of his existence. If he hasn't, then his existence becomes purely an exersize of imagination to an atheist - just as any other thing a rational person wouldn't ordinarily believe in. I'm sure you can fill in the blanks as to what those might be.

What my question asked you to do was to lead me down the same path you took to god. I didn't ask for proof, I merely asked that you tell me how you concluded that god must exist in any matter or another.
I'm looking as much for your personal evidence just as much as I'm looking for your reasoning.

My other, perhaps more important question, was what role does god even have in the world in your view?

(July 19, 2010 at 8:05 pm)Godhead Wrote: I'm open to giving up my beliefs simply because I too go where the evidence (reason to believe / conviction) takes me. So far, my evidence has clearly pointed to the existance of god. It is evidence which can't be commuicated and shown, as you know. If you can show me anything to contradict that I'm open to it. But as I say I've not seen any. Also, in order for me to drop my beliefs, I would have to see evidence that the universe is godless. Now I fully realise that atheists don't think that way and they don't feel the need to disprove god, however, I do, and to deconvert me you'd have to do that, whether you're comfortable with it or not. It is what would make me drop my beliefs. I think it's the only thing that would. If you don't want to try that's ok but to deconvert me it's what you'd need to do.

You need to understand that you haven't given me anything to proove or disprove you of. You've already acknowledged that there is no empirical evidence to support the existance of god, redering that question meaningless, but you want me to provide evidence to prove a godless universe?
I shouldn't have to tell you how impossible it is to proove a godless universe when there is no proof of god. The very question contradicts itself.

If you can resolve this logical issue or communication problem, then there might be some progress to be had, otherwise, this is going to be very futile.

Godhead, are you trying to wind the Void up?

EvF

I think it's safe to say that arguing with Godhead is quite pointless.
He doesn't seem to understand about the burden of proof.

He expects atheist to prove that there is no god even though there is no evidence for god in the first place.

Fucking idiot.


Godhead. Lets see if you can disprove the existance of the FSM (flying speghetti monster).

Darkness of angels -

In answer to your questions, I'm not that keen on the word "conclusion' as it implies finality, and excludes the possibility of changing one's mind, but in terms of my personal evidence and my reasoning, it's because firstly, I feel an awareness that everything is conscious and everything is one thing, and that there's a god and all things are a manifestation of god, and I feel that awareness in the same way that we all feel an awareness that we are in a physical world (ie it's obvious to us, it's in our face). That feeling, to me, is backed up by my reasoning, which is that for something to exist, it must be self aware, and that it must be part of a whole as well as autonomous, and that it must have a manifest and unmanifest aspect. Are you going to try and prove that the universe is godless? If so, why just you?