Can atheists convert theists?

[Godhead]

The purpose of this thread is to establish how an atheist would convert a theist to atheism.

Please let's not have a discussion solely about my beliefs or any other theist's beliefs as there are other threads where that can be discussed, this is specifically to see if you can convert me or any other theist.

We're not discussing how atheists would ridicule theists, or vice versa, and we're not discussing how you or I would consider the other person's views and disagree. We know that we disagree.

So, if you (atheists) were to attempt to convert a theist, how would you do it? Which methods would be most effective? Have you ever done it? If so, how? And which methods are least effective? Can you convert me?

[Minimalist]

Convert in what sense. Some say there is no god...others (myself included) say there is no evidence for any gods.

We have no rituals, prayers, saints, masses, doctrines or collection plates and we don't sodomize little kids. There is thus nothing to "convert" to.

[Godhead]

Minimalist -

Convert as in convince.

[Dotard]

The purpose of this thread is to establish how an atheist would convert a theist to atheism.

We're not discussing how atheists would ridicule theists, ..... Can you convert me?

1.) But ridicule is a necessary component to illustrate how ridiculous your beliefs are.

2.) Not as long as your insecurity requires you to keep hold of that warm fuzzy security blanket.

[Minimalist]

Minimalist -

Convert as in convince.

I can tell you there is no historical evidence for any god. What you do with the data is up to you. If you want to con yourself that there is a god there is nothing anyone can do in the face of such a delusion.

[Oldandeasilyconfused]

The purpose of this thread is to establish how an atheist would convert a theist to atheism.

First, it's de-convert,as atheism is not a belief system,but merely the absence of belief.

I guess your question is more "how would an atheist cause a believer to lose faith?"

I think that would depend on the believer. Faith is not built on reason,but is the antithesis of reason,IE beleif without evidence. Reason cannot easily be used to dissuade someone from a position in which reason had no part in forming. I think that's why relatively few believers ever seem to stop believing completely. As Augustine Of Hippo said "give me the child and I care not who has the man"

My answer to your questsion is "I don't know". It's not a question to which I've ever given any thought. That's because I really don't care about the personal beliefs of others [unless they get in my face] and because I despise proselytising .

[Shell B]

I have never seen a theist have an "a-ha" moment about god because of something an atheist said. Therefore, I find myself taking the position of not wanting to even try to "convince" a theist. I wouldn't want the inevitable headache. Ridicule is far less frustrating.

[Dotard]

Ridicule is far less frustrating.

And fun too!

[The Omnissiunt One]

How would I try to convert you? Well, there are, I suppose, three basic facts which either point to the improbability of a theist god or make a deist god redundant.

1) To start with, the Christian conception of God can be positively disproven. There are countless unanswered prayers (as shown by a study by, I think, the Templeton Foundation). Also, whilst the vast amounts of gratuitous suffering (especially the suffering of animals and young children, ho can't spiritually develop and, in the former case, have no free will) could conceivably be explained away, they are much more to be expected in an atheistic worldview than a theistic one. Using Occam's Razor, we would probably conclude that the best explanation for suffering is that there's no god.
2) Science has progressively made a creator/designer redundant. A thousand years ago, volcanoes and lightning would have been seen as evidence of God's wrath. In 1858, it would have been the complexity and diversity of nature, but now we know that life on Earth evolved (though you no doubt don't believe this). There is an historical precedent for science finding natural explanations for phenomena which are currently attributed to God e.g. miracles.
3) My own argument for atheism, rather than agnosticism, is that, given lack of evidence, disbelief is the default position. Given that the human mind can conceive of countless things which are demonstrably not true (I can imagine an elephant on my desk, or a giraffe, or a skunk, etc., but none of this is true), it's very unlikely that we would conceive of anything which does in fact exist in reality, unless we have evidence for it. Therefore, God probably does not exist.

Of course, this probably won't persuade you, but I've answered your question.

[strattosphere]

One of the biggest problems with faith is that we are dealing with human egos and a fear of death. The longer the religious person has held their belief the worse would be the sense of a wasted life and an empty void if they came to their senses, so an unbreakable, fingers in the ears lalala, denial state grips them. Also, fear of death has a way of creating new believers of old people.

The religious person sees their faith as a possession, a personal choice of how to think, a comforter against the reality of nothingness and something to treasure and be proud of, any attack on the beliefs is perceived as an attack on the person, a criticism of the personality. A bombardment of logic and reason will cause shutdown. The very devout may even start to rock and pray quietly (or loudly).

I think the only way to deprogram is to get inside and bring the zombie along with you on the journey from death-cult to life. You have to get them asking their own questions about their beliefs. Show a real interest in them as a person; everyone likes to talk about themself. As they talk you have to really listen so that when they say something that confounds logic (and they will), you start to question it gently by asking them to explain what they mean. Ask real questions to try to get them to think logically about what it is they are actually saying. If you adopt an argumentative position, disagree with anything, however logical you are you'll lose them. It has to be them answering genuine questions, presuming they are willing, so you have to be really clever about how the questions are constructed.

Of course this is still unlikely to work because statistically intelligence is lower in religious people than atheists (http://bit.ly/8X2gAW). They'll probably do the 'ah but God works in blah blah blah'. Also, at the end of the day they go back to their own environment and any chinks in their faith will most likely be reset.

I was once talking to a religious friend about Genesis and when I came out with some inconsistencies in the logic or reasoned arguments about how dinosaurs did exist and that the story of Adam and Eve is a fairytale he said 'let's not dwell on the past' and that was that! Berk!

Stratt