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December 12, 2014 at 2:05 pm (This post was last modified: December 12, 2014 at 2:08 pm by abaris.)
(December 12, 2014 at 1:47 pm)Huggy74 Wrote: Apparently you didn't read it or you would have seen that the reference is not from the Bible, it is taken from one of the apocryphal books. Not Bible canon but still historical nonetheless.
As I said, bible thumping. It doesn't matter if they're sanctioned or not. They're not source material or in any way historical.
And it really doesn't matter if you're refering to politheism or the adoration of Donald Duck. Religion was politheistic, since the stone age people worshipped the sun, the moon, the earth and sometimes fire. That's politheism, since there wasn't a single object of adoration.
Let's carry on with your belief in polytheism originating in Messopotamia, which is utterly absurd, since there were highly developed polytheistic religions on a different continents. Take the first link into account because of the times of migration from one region to another. None of the Middle Eastern higher cultures have formed at the particular time.
That's why I said, you're mixing fact with fiction, since obviously the Middle Eastern and Mediterranian cultures influenced each other. But that isn't true for China and Asia, nor is it true for the Americas, nor for Northern Europe.
December 12, 2014 at 3:14 pm (This post was last modified: December 12, 2014 at 3:19 pm by Huggy Bear.)
(December 12, 2014 at 2:19 pm)FatAndFaithless Wrote: Your soruces are shit. I can quote Harry Potter about the architecture of magical train stations but I doubt you'd take that as valid.
You're such a troll...
Look again at my original post, the one I responded to Abaris request for sources.
Quote:Mesopotamia (/ˌmɛsəpəˈteɪmiə/, from the Ancient Greek: Μεσοποταμία "[land] between rivers"; Arabic: بلاد الرافدين (bilād al-rāfidayn); Syriac: ܒܝܬ ܢܗܪܝܢ (Beth Nahrain) "land of rivers") is a name for the area of the Tigris–Euphrates river system, corresponding to modern-day Iraq, Kuwait, the northeastern section of Syria and to a much lesser extent southeastern Turkey and smaller parts of southwestern Iran. Widely considered to be the cradle of civilization in the West, Bronze Age Mesopotamia included Sumer and the Akkadian, Babylonian, and Assyrian empires, all native to the territory of modern-day Iraq. In the Iron Age, it was controlled by the Neo-Assyrian and Neo-Babylonian empires. The indigenous Sumerians and Akkadians (including Assyrians and Babylonians) dominated Mesopotamia from the beginning of written history (c. 3100 BC) to the fall of Babylon in 539 BC, when it was conquered by the Achaemenid Empire. It fell to Alexander the Great in 332 BC, and after his death, it became part of the Greek Seleucid Empire.
Quote:Located about 60 miles (100 kilometers) south of Baghdad in modern-day Iraq, the ancient city of Babylon served for nearly two millennia as a center of Mesopotamian civilization.
Quote:The Greek form Babylon (Βαβυλών) is an adaptation of Akkadian Babili. The Babylonian name as it stood in the 1st millennium BC had been changed from an earlier Babilli in early 2nd millennium BC, meaning "Gate of God" or "Gateway of the God" (bāb-ili) by popular etymology.
Quote:Babylon, hitherto a minor city, eclipsed Nippur as the "holy city" of Mesopotamia around the time an Amorite king named Hammurabi first created the short lived Babylonian Empire in the 18th century BC. Babylon grew and South Mesopotamia came to be known as Babylonia.
•Adad or Ishkur - god of storms, venerated as a supreme power especially in Syria and Lebanon
•Ashur or Enlil - god of the wind , head of the Assyrian pantheon
•Anu or An - god of heaven and the sky, lord of constellations, and father of the gods
•Enki or Ea - god of the Abzu, crafts, water, intelligence, mischief and creation and divine ruler of the Earth and its human inhabitants
•Ereshkigal - goddess of Irkalla, the Underworld
•Inanna or Ishtar - goddess of fertility, love, and war
•Marduk - patron deity of Babylon who eventually became regarded as the head of the Babylonian pantheon
•Nabu - god of wisdom and writing
•Nanshe - goddess of social justice, prophecy, fertility and fishing
•Nergal - god of plague, war, and the sun in its destructive capacity; later husband of Ereshkigal
•Ninhursag or Mami, Belet-Ili, Ki, Ninmah, Nintu, or Aruru - earth and mother goddess
•Ninlil - goddess of the air; consort of Enlil
•Ninurta - champion of the gods, the epitome of youthful vigour, and god of agriculture
•Shamash or Utu - god of the sun, arbiter of justice and patron of travellers
•Sin or Nanna - god of the moon
•Tammuz or Dumuzi - god of food and vegetation
Is it so hard to believe that polytheism had a place of origin? Christianity is a microcosm of this, in that it is no longer what it originally was, thanks to the Catholic church (the religious Babylon referred to in Revelation) who instituted polytheism back into the church AKA the trinity (3 gods) and praying to Mary (queen of heaven aka Ishtar) and the saints. http://www.sabbathcovenant.com/book2Myst...apter7.htm
Quote:Semiramis became known as the fertility goddess Ishtar. She took on many names in different cultures including Isis, Diana, Astarte, Ishtar, Aphrodite, Venus, and Easter. She was even identified with Mary as Mary was falsely deified and took on the titles “Mother of God” and “Queen of Heaven”. Her son Tammuz took on many names as well such as Horus, Apollo, Sol, Krishna, Hercules, Mithra, and finally Jesus. The name Jesus H. Christ, in fact, originated by Constantine as Hesus Horus Krishna. “Hesus Horus Krishna” evolved into Jesus H. Christ over the years. All names of Tammuz put together for the son of the sungod and member of the Trinity worshipped on Sunday the day of his sungod.
Quote:Semiramis instituted a holy day in her Babylonian religion in honor of the supposed “death/resurrection” of her son Tammuz. Below is a picture of the Semiramis and Tammuz, the “Modonna/Child” and “Mary/Jesus”
At one point, even the Hebrews fell into pagan worship of Semiramis aka Ishtar
Quote:Jeremiah 44
15 Then all the men which knew that their wives had burned incense unto other gods, and all the women that stood by, a great multitude, even all the people that dwelt in the land of Egypt, in Pathros, answered Jeremiah, saying,
16 As for the word that thou hast spoken unto us in the name of the Lord, we will not hearken unto thee.
17 But we will certainly do whatsoever thing goeth forth out of our own mouth, to burn incense unto the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto her, as we have done, we, and our fathers, our kings, and our princes, in the cities of Judah, and in the streets of Jerusalem: for then had we plenty of victuals, and were well, and saw no evil.
18 But since we left off to burn incense to the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto her, we have wanted all things, and have been consumed by the sword and by the famine.
19 And when we burned incense to the queen of heaven, and poured out drink offerings unto her, did we make her cakes to worship her, and pour out drink offerings unto her, without our men?
The point is the coming of the messiah (Jesus Christ) was always known about, but the original "religion" (for lack of a better word) devolved into paganism.
the Book of Job is the oldest book in the Bible (which many people don't know), and existed before Abraham (who also was from Mesopotamia).
Quote:Job 19:25
For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:
Quote:Hebrews 11
8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.
9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:
10 For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.
Out of the 6 sources listed 4 are from Wikipedia, 1 is from livescience.com (not a religious website), and one from sabbathcovenant.com (Jewish website).
That's why I said, you're mixing fact with fiction, since obviously the Middle Eastern and Mediterranian cultures influenced each other. But that isn't true for China and Asia, nor is it true for the Americas, nor for Northern Europe.
Just asserting that there had to have been polytheism before the Mesopotamian era we are currently discussing isn't helping, Name some of these religions.
I've made my case for how norse mythology has it's roots in the ancient Babylonian religion as you originally asked.
(December 11, 2014 at 3:58 pm)abaris Wrote: And the Edda teaches us something different.
Quote: Unfettered will fare the Fenris Wolf
and ravaged the realm of men,
ere that cometh a kingly prince
as good, to stand in his stead.
So what's your point, since both are tales of the gods.
Quote:Mesopotamia (/ˌmɛsəpəˈteɪmiə/, from the Ancient Greek: Μεσοποταμία "[land] between rivers"; Arabic: بلاد الرافدين (bilād al-rāfidayn); Syriac: ܒܝܬ ܢܗܪܝܢ (Beth Nahrain) "land of rivers") is a name for the area of the Tigris–Euphrates river system, corresponding to modern-day Iraq, Kuwait, the northeastern section of Syria and to a much lesser extent southeastern Turkey and smaller parts of southwestern Iran. Widely considered to be the cradle of civilization in the West, Bronze Age Mesopotamia included Sumer and the Akkadian, Babylonian, and Assyrian empires, all native to the territory of modern-day Iraq. In the Iron Age, it was controlled by the Neo-Assyrian and Neo-Babylonian empires. The indigenous Sumerians and Akkadians (including Assyrians and Babylonians) dominated Mesopotamia from the beginning of written history (c. 3100 BC) to the fall of Babylon in 539 BC, when it was conquered by the Achaemenid Empire. It fell to Alexander the Great in 332 BC, and after his death, it became part of the Greek Seleucid Empire.
Quote:Located about 60 miles (100 kilometers) south of Baghdad in modern-day Iraq, the ancient city of Babylon served for nearly two millennia as a center of Mesopotamian civilization.
Quote:The Greek form Babylon (Βαβυλών) is an adaptation of Akkadian Babili. The Babylonian name as it stood in the 1st millennium BC had been changed from an earlier Babilli in early 2nd millennium BC, meaning "Gate of God" or "Gateway of the God" (bāb-ili) by popular etymology.
Quote:Babylon, hitherto a minor city, eclipsed Nippur as the "holy city" of Mesopotamia around the time an Amorite king named Hammurabi first created the short lived Babylonian Empire in the 18th century BC. Babylon grew and South Mesopotamia came to be known as Babylonia.
•Adad or Ishkur - god of storms, venerated as a supreme power especially in Syria and Lebanon
•Ashur or Enlil - god of the wind , head of the Assyrian pantheon
•Anu or An - god of heaven and the sky, lord of constellations, and father of the gods
•Enki or Ea - god of the Abzu, crafts, water, intelligence, mischief and creation and divine ruler of the Earth and its human inhabitants
•Ereshkigal - goddess of Irkalla, the Underworld
•Inanna or Ishtar - goddess of fertility, love, and war
•Marduk - patron deity of Babylon who eventually became regarded as the head of the Babylonian pantheon
•Nabu - god of wisdom and writing
•Nanshe - goddess of social justice, prophecy, fertility and fishing
•Nergal - god of plague, war, and the sun in its destructive capacity; later husband of Ereshkigal
•Ninhursag or Mami, Belet-Ili, Ki, Ninmah, Nintu, or Aruru - earth and mother goddess
•Ninlil - goddess of the air; consort of Enlil
•Ninurta - champion of the gods, the epitome of youthful vigour, and god of agriculture
•Shamash or Utu - god of the sun, arbiter of justice and patron of travellers
•Sin or Nanna - god of the moon
•Tammuz or Dumuzi - god of food and vegetation
Is it so hard to believe that polytheism had a place of origin? Christianity is a microcosm of this, in that it is no longer what it originally was, thanks to the Catholic church (the religious Babylon referred to in Revelation) who instituted polytheism back into the church AKA the trinity (3 gods) and praying to Mary (queen of heaven aka Ishtar) and the saints. http://www.sabbathcovenant.com/book2Myst...apter7.htm
Quote:Semiramis became known as the fertility goddess Ishtar. She took on many names in different cultures including Isis, Diana, Astarte, Ishtar, Aphrodite, Venus, and Easter. She was even identified with Mary as Mary was falsely deified and took on the titles “Mother of God” and “Queen of Heaven”. Her son Tammuz took on many names as well such as Horus, Apollo, Sol, Krishna, Hercules, Mithra, and finally Jesus. The name Jesus H. Christ, in fact, originated by Constantine as Hesus Horus Krishna. “Hesus Horus Krishna” evolved into Jesus H. Christ over the years. All names of Tammuz put together for the son of the sungod and member of the Trinity worshipped on Sunday the day of his sungod.
Quote:Semiramis instituted a holy day in her Babylonian religion in honor of the supposed “death/resurrection” of her son Tammuz. Below is a picture of the Semiramis and Tammuz, the “Modonna/Child” and “Mary/Jesus”
At one point, even the Hebrews fell into pagan worship of Semiramis aka Ishtar
Quote:Jeremiah 44
15 Then all the men which knew that their wives had burned incense unto other gods, and all the women that stood by, a great multitude, even all the people that dwelt in the land of Egypt, in Pathros, answered Jeremiah, saying,
16 As for the word that thou hast spoken unto us in the name of the Lord, we will not hearken unto thee.
17 But we will certainly do whatsoever thing goeth forth out of our own mouth, to burn incense unto the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto her, as we have done, we, and our fathers, our kings, and our princes, in the cities of Judah, and in the streets of Jerusalem: for then had we plenty of victuals, and were well, and saw no evil.
18 But since we left off to burn incense to the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto her, we have wanted all things, and have been consumed by the sword and by the famine.
19 And when we burned incense to the queen of heaven, and poured out drink offerings unto her, did we make her cakes to worship her, and pour out drink offerings unto her, without our men?
The point is the coming of the messiah (Jesus Christ) was always known about, but the original "religion" (for lack of a better word) devolved into paganism.
the Book of Job is the oldest book in the Bible (which many people don't know), and existed before Abraham (who also was from Mesopotamia).
Quote:Job 19:25
For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:
Quote:Hebrews 11
8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.
9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:
10 For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.
Out of the 6 sources listed 4 are from Wikipedia, 1 is from livescience.com (not a religious website), and one from sabbathcovenant.com (Jewish website).
So which of theses sources don't you agree with?
I'm going to disagree with your claim that all polytheistic religions have their origins in Mesopotamia. We simply cannot know conclusively if that is the case. The Mesopotamian religion was the first recorded - quite different from the first ever. I know there are historians who contend that the belief system of the many, many peoples in the Mesopotamian region was indeed the first, but there is enough evidence to cast doubt on that theory.
Now, while there are no written records of any religions predating Mesopotamia (an unsurprising fact since writing had not yet been developed), there are archeological findings which strongly suggest religious ideas and notions, possibly involving god and/or gods, as early as the paleolithic period. Bodies were intentionally buried, and oftentimes were interred along with tools or weapons. This suggests a belief in an afterlife, which is quite often associated with deities or spirits. As time progressed, burials in particular were ritualized, bodies were ornately decorated before interment, and other oddities that suggest at least spiritual/religious motives. Paleolithic art is also thought by some scholars to be symbolically and/or religiously significant rather than being rendered for merely aesthetic purposes. Furthermore, pottery, sculptures, and other such findings are thought by some to indicate religious behaviors predating the Mesopotamian religion.
We could go back and forth all day on this argument. It is nowhere near settled even among anthropologists, historians, archeologists, and others who are experts in this subject-matter. Suffice to say, I think it is folly to say without a doubt that all polytheistic religions originated in Babylon. There is simply no way to make such a claim with any authority.
By the way, I studied ancient and medieval history at my university and graduated summa cum laude with a B.S. I was also awarded the Academic Award for History from the history department during my senior year. I know me some history.
"We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid." ~ Benjamin Franklin
(December 11, 2014 at 5:15 am)robvalue Wrote: So Christ raised himself from the dead? While he was dead? That's impressive.
I looked stuff up and saw that there is no legal definition of what it means to be dead, in England at least. The Is it:
(a) Beyond the point at which the person can ever come back to life
(b) An arbitrary set of guidelines
problem is, what is being dead?
Clearly (a) is not being used, because people are evaluated as dead temporarily then brought round by CLEAR! And people come back to life sometimes when pronounced dead.
Whichever definition you use, human judgement is being employed. And it can be wrong. Say it is wrong once in every million times someone is pronounced dead, I think that's a reasonable estimate? Then you'd fully expect some people to "come back to life". It would be strange if they didn't, frankly. That would make the doctors infallible.
NDE = bollocks, brain under extreme stress creating hallucinations which inevitably involve what it is familiar such as jesus and angels and crap and somehow no muslim stuff
"problem is, what is being dead?" ,
----------------------------
it means clinically dead. you are confused by the obvious.
Atheist Credo: A universe by chance that also just happened to admit the observer by chance.
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