First of all, since this is my very first post please let me tell you how happy I am to have found this great "little" place and secondly if this post happens to be in the wrong section please let me know so I can check with an admin.

So here's my story,

I consider myself to be an atheist who happens to practice meditation (mostly for its health benefits, such as lowering blood pressure) and happens to agree with the Buddhist teachings about the importance of balance but I should say that I have never bought into the whole reincarnation and enlightenment thing.

Anyway this post is not about me, it's about my girlfriend.

We met a couple of years ago and we've been together ever since. Lately I've been thinking about proposing to her and I would have done so already if her religious views didn't get in the way.

You see, she's a Scientologist...

I have a rather liberal approach to religion, everyone is welcome to believe any kind of mythology that happens to suit them as long as they don't impose it on me and this has been the case for us as well.

If however I was to marry her and have children together I would never consider endoctrinating our children to ANYTHING other than independent scientific critical thinking and let them make their own choices upon adulthood.

So my question to you is how do I get her to at least evaluate this point of view when ALL she has known for her entire life was stupidology... I guess I should mention that unfortunately for her she was, as they say, born into this.

Would anyone be able to offer me some kind of Scientology specific line of argument that could help me make my point?

I know it's impossible to persuade someone who is not willing to listen but this is not exactly the case with her, she is open to discussion except every time I manage to make a valid argument I always end up hitting a wall of "I don't know what you say all I know is that it works for me and that's all the proof I need".

Any thoughts?

I hate to think that I might have wasted the last two years of my life on her and all things considered we do get along very well with each other so I'm not willing to give up without a fight and there is absolutely no chance I'm going to allow me children to be corrupted by any kind of irrational mythological nonsense.

Thank you for taking the time to read through all this, please excuse any grammar or spelling mistakes I might have made, English is not my first language and please rest assured that ANY help with this would be MOST appreciated and welcome.

If I'm reading correctly, her parents are Scientologists. IF you have children, that would be a consideration as well. The grandparents could say some odd stuff to your child. Either that or perhaps they disown their daughter and her children. It seems to me the more zealous a person is with their religion, the less tolerant they happen to be.

"If however I was to marry her and have children together I would never consider endoctrinating our children to ANYTHING other than independent scientific critical thinking and let them make their own choices upon adulthood. "

Is that your only parameter?

Buy a new pair of tennis shoes, you've got some running to do..

She is actively practicing scientology yes.

She was born into it, endoctrinated and stuck with it ever since.

Raising children is the only reason I would consider making this official and when it comes to that a "religion-free" family is my most important parameter as far as raising our children goes.

I'm not worried so much about external influences as I am worried about her views on the matter.

I have just begun putting some thought into this and I obviously discuss it with her as well... It's just that I fear I'll run into this "wall" again and I was hoping to prepare some kind of arsenal before I head into battle.

Hello there, welcome to the forum Thank you for sharing your story.

This is always a very tricky situation. I can only offer advice based on my experience and observations. I used to date someone who was religious, and it slowly became more and more of a problem. I know now that I could not devote my life to someone who takes religion at all seriously, it would drive me to despair.

It is great that you are having these thoughts before having children. That is about the only decision that cannot be undone. I would say you need to really thrash it out, every detail of how raising your kids would work, before you even consider it. Leaving anything to chance, to hope of reasonableness or the confidence that you'll be able to compromise is extremely dangerous.

My overall advice is don't have kids with her unless you are really, really sure she is going to allow your kids total freedom of thought. I find it hard to believe that anyone who is deeply into any religion is likely to stick to this. It's too deeply ingrained, and they often can't differentiate reality from mythology. Occasionally people will prove me wrong, of course. And it's gonna be up to you to make that judgement call. But on the whole, I don't like the odds, and the risk of indoctrination (child abuse) is high. So you gotta be as sure as you can be. Religion is by its very nature deceptive and controlling.

Of course I'm speaking extremely generally here. I have heard many stories similar to yours where it has gone horribly wrong. No disrespect to your girlfriend, but people can lie, even if it's just to themselves. And if she can't help herself in the end but to push this crap on them, it's gonna be really bad. Especially as if it ever came to custody battles, the mother always seems to have the trump cards.

The other possibility is adoption, which I personally would love more people to consider. That way, if things go wrong, at least you haven't created a new life to get fucked up. And I think you'd have more power if things went wrong, as she wouldn't have the blood mother innate rights. And it could be re homed again altogether as a last resort. Of course that's far from ideal, and you should still thrash everything out, but it limits the overall damage while helping overpopulation, and giving a child in need a home.

(December 14, 2014 at 1:15 pm)Brakeman Wrote: Buy a new pair of tennis shoes, you've got some running to do..

I hate to agree on this with you but I fear it's a lost battle already, still she is a great gal and worth fighting for, so...

Have you ever brought these concerns up with her? If not, you really should. No relationship can survive if there isn't absolute honesty between both parties. It's far better to have an honest and frank conversation about all of it - that you do love her, that you're concerned about how seriously she takes her religion and how that may affect your potential children, and that you've hesitated popping the question because of it - now than after you've set the wheels of marriage and/or parenthood in motion.

Honesty and conflict are hard, but not as hard as going through a divorce, especially if there are kids involved.

(December 14, 2014 at 12:55 pm)Giorgos.vr Wrote: First of all, since this is my very first post please let me tell you how happy I am to have found this great "little" place and secondly if this post happens to be in the wrong section please let me know so I can check with an admin.

So here's my story,

I consider myself to be an atheist who happens to practice meditation (mostly for its health benefits, such as lowering blood pressure) and happens to agree with the Buddhist teachings about the importance of balance but I should say that I have never bought into the whole reincarnation and enlightenment thing.

Anyway this post is not about me, it's about my girlfriend.

We met a couple of years ago and we've been together ever since. Lately I've been thinking about proposing to her and I would have done so already if her religious views didn't get in the way.

You see, she's a Scientologist...

I have a rather liberal approach to religion, everyone is welcome to believe any kind of mythology that happens to suit them as long as they don't impose it on me and this has been the case for us as well.

If however I was to marry her and have children together I would never consider endoctrinating our children to ANYTHING other than independent scientific critical thinking and let them make their own choices upon adulthood.

So my question to you is how do I get her to at least evaluate this point of view when ALL she has known for her entire life was stupidology... I guess I should mention that unfortunately for her she was, as they say, born into this.

Would anyone be able to offer me some kind of Scientology specific line of argument that could help me make my point?

I know it's impossible to persuade someone who is not willing to listen but this is not exactly the case with her, she is open to discussion except every time I manage to make a valid argument I always end up hitting a wall of "I don't know what you say all I know is that it works for me and that's all the proof I need".

Any thoughts?

I hate to think that I might have wasted the last two years of my life on her and all things considered we do get along very well with each other so I'm not willing to give up without a fight and there is absolutely no chance I'm going to allow me children to be corrupted by any kind of irrational mythological nonsense.

Thank you for taking the time to read through all this, please excuse any grammar or spelling mistakes I might have made, English is not my first language and please rest assured that ANY help with this would be MOST appreciated and welcome.

"I don't know what you say all I know is that it works for me and that's all the proof I need".

- that's all the proof you need that her love for you is not enough to conquer her self-satisfied mind, and either you act decisively and suffer a sharp, but likely comparatively brief, pain now and get a fresh start, or go with the flow up the creek, and suffer a lingering protracted agony later, possibly with unpleasant consequences for your children as well.

(December 14, 2014 at 1:26 pm)KevinM1 Wrote: Have you ever brought these concerns up with her?

Oh yes, you're right, but after two years if she's not open enough to him to expose and discuss the reasons she believes in such hooha, then she's not close enough to him anyway.

That's a good point.