(December 19, 2014 at 2:21 pm)His_Majesty Wrote:

(December 17, 2014 at 2:34 pm)Esquilax Wrote: Two things: one your ignorance is showing again. "Darwinian" evolution has long been superseded by modern synthesis, that encompasses aspects of biology and population genetics that Darwin simply could not have known about.

Evolution in general hasn't been proven, that I am not ignorant about. That is the one thing that is certain.

Even on that you are wrong. Evolution is a fact.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CW1Lpa23mOw

Oooooh, it is so a fact. If you deny that, you're being willfully ignorant. Like so many other theists. The information is all over the internet, if you can be bothered to look.

(December 19, 2014 at 2:21 pm)His_Majesty Wrote:

(December 17, 2014 at 2:34 pm)Esquilax Wrote: Two things: one your ignorance is showing again. "Darwinian" evolution has long been superseded by modern synthesis, that encompasses aspects of biology and population genetics that Darwin simply could not have known about.

Evolution in general hasn't been proven, that I am not ignorant about. That is the one thing that is certain.

So... basically, "nuh uh!"?

What a cogent, comprehensive rebuttal.

Quote:It is true to those that already believe in the theory. Go figure.

Nope, sorry: things cannot be true to you. Truth is independent of one's opinions on it. We don't live in a solipsistic universe.

(December 17, 2014 at 2:50 pm)Jenny A Wrote: Yep while at the same time having a little conversation in which he pleads with himself not to die:

"Father, if you are willing, remove this cup from me; yet, not my will but yours be done." Luke: 22:42 NRSV

If Jesus and god are one how can they have different wills?

We shouldn't make a doctrine out of one scripture...the overwhelming scriptural evidence suggest that both the Father and the Son have the same will...now I will admit, this is a tough one, no doubt..but scripture is clear that Jesus WILLING laid down his life, now as a man knowing that he is about to face beatings, insults, torcher, it doesn't matter who you are, if you are a person who experiences physical/mental pain, you wouldn't want to go through it.

You've never seen the word "torture" written down before, have you?

(December 19, 2014 at 2:49 pm)His_Majesty Wrote: We shouldn't make a doctrine out of one scripture...the overwhelming scriptural evidence suggest that both the Father and the Son have the same will...now I will admit, this is a tough one, no doubt..but scripture is clear that Jesus WILLING laid down his life, now as a man knowing that he is about to face beatings, insults, torcher, it doesn't matter who you are, if you are a person who experiences physical/mental pain, you wouldn't want to go through it.

You're the only one making a fuzz about it. Either it's the trinity or it's not. Either they share the same spirit or it's just another politheistic shtick with three seperate deities. Make your choice on that matter.

If the trinity is in accordance with your believes, Jesus didn't die at all, since he can't. He's eternal like the other two parts making up the whole package. So, as I just said in a different thread, he just threw away a fleshy carcass he inhabited for 30 something years, just to please his other self. And no matter how much of a horror show he went through before his phony demise, it's still a show.

One third of god was AWOL for 3 days = god dead?

What garbage.

(December 17, 2014 at 3:01 pm)Jenny A Wrote: Omnipotence itself is logically impossible. But even if you define it as only what's logically possible so as to avoid questions like, can god make a rock so heavy he can't pick it up, that doesn't solve the problem of multiple omnipotent beings. There's no logical problem with an omnipotent being being able to make a rock some big that no one else can pick it up. In fact that ability is assumed in the definition of omnipotence.

What? Please explain why the concept of omnipotence is logically impossible.

(December 17, 2014 at 3:01 pm)Jenny A Wrote: Which is why having more than one of them is a problem. They can't both be in control of everything because their power must each be limited by the other. If there's more than one omnipotent being than you are going to have to redefine omnipotent.

What do you mean "they can't be in control of everything because their power must each be limited by the other". Doesn't make a bit of sense to me.

(December 19, 2014 at 2:49 pm)His_Majesty Wrote:

(December 17, 2014 at 2:50 pm)Jenny A Wrote: Yep while at the same time having a little conversation in which he pleads with himself not to die:

"Father, if you are willing, remove this cup from me; yet, not my will but yours be done." Luke: 22:42 NRSV

If Jesus and god are one how can they have different wills?

We shouldn't make a doctrine out of one scripture...the overwhelming scriptural evidence suggest that both the Father and the Son have the same will...now I will admit, this is a tough one, no doubt..but scripture is clear that Jesus WILLING laid down his life, now as a man knowing that he is about to face beatings, insults, torcher, it doesn't matter who you are, if you are a person who experiences physical/mental pain, you wouldn't want to go through it.

If the Bible were inerrant, wouldn't we be able to trust every verse? But not to worry there are more examples of Jesus' separateness from god:

Quote:And a voice came from heaven: “You are my Son, whom I love; with you I am well pleased.”

Mark 1:9-11

And then there is the temptation of Christ in which Jesus tells Satan that it would be wrong of Jesus (or anyone else) to tempt god:

Quote:Then Jesus was led by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted[a] by the devil. 2 After fasting forty days and forty nights, he was hungry. 3 The tempter came to him and said, “If you are the Son of God, tell these stones to become bread.”

4 Jesus answered, “It is written: ‘Man shall not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God.’” 5 Then the devil took him to the holy city and had him stand on the highest point of the temple. 6 “If you are the Son of God,” he said, “throw yourself down. For it is written:

“‘He will command his angels concerning you,
and they will lift you up in their hands,
so that you will not strike your foot against a stone.’”

7 Jesus answered him, “It is also written: ‘Do not put the Lord your God to the test.’”8 Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their splendor. 9 “All this I will give you,” he said, “if you will bow down and worship me.”10 Jesus said to him, “Away from me, Satan! For it is written: ‘Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only.’” 11 Then the devil left him, and angels came and attended him.

Mathew 4:1-11. See also: Luke 4.

Quote:No one knows about that day or hour, not even the Son, but the Father only.

Mathew 24:35

Quote:For as the Father has life in Himself, so he has granted the Son to have life in himself.

John 5:26

Jesus says,

Quote:By myself, I can do nothing: I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who has sent me.

John 5:30

Jesus says,

Quote:Why do you call me good? No one is good, except God alone.

Mark 10:18

Jesus says:

Quote:My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken me?

Mathew 27:46

Quote:During the days of Jesus' life on earth, he offered up prayers and petitions with loud cries and tears to the one who could save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverent submission. Although he was a son, he learned obedience from what he suffered and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him

Hebrews 5:7-9

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(December 19, 2014 at 12:36 pm)His_Majesty Wrote:

(December 17, 2014 at 3:05 pm)DeistPaladin Wrote: Did they come before dawn or after dawn on the Sunday?

Luke said "very early in the morning".

John said "While it was still dark"

Mark said "Just after sunrise", and if was just after sunrise, it was still very early in the morning and still dark.

Matthew said "At dawn"...and at dawn it is still dark.

No problems here.

All of your explanations are pretty lame as they assume odd things like a witness coming upon four supernatural beings and telling people about 1-3 or them and neglecting the others. But the dawn/dark distinction is particularly egregious.

Dawn: " to begin to become light as the sun rises." http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/dawn

morning:"the early part of the day : the time of day from sunrise until noon." http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/morning

The modern notion of morning running from midnight until noon is a much later idea having to do with the advent of clocks as opposed to sundials.

Either it was dark and therefore night, or it was dawn or after. It can't be both. Dawn is definitively not dark. And prior to clocks, morning is not dark either.

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(December 19, 2014 at 3:10 pm)His_Majesty Wrote:

(December 17, 2014 at 3:01 pm)Jenny A Wrote: Omnipotence itself is logically impossible. But even if you define it as only what's logically possible so as to avoid questions like, can god make a rock so heavy he can't pick it up, that doesn't solve the problem of multiple omnipotent beings. There's no logical problem with an omnipotent being being able to make a rock some big that no one else can pick it up. In fact that ability is assumed in the definition of omnipotence.

What? Please explain why the concept of omnipotence is logically impossible.

(December 17, 2014 at 3:01 pm)Jenny A Wrote: Which is why having more than one of them is a problem. They can't both be in control of everything because their power must each be limited by the other. If there's more than one omnipotent being than you are going to have to redefine omnipotent.

What do you mean "they can't be in control of everything because their power must each be limited by the other". Doesn't make a bit of sense to me.

It's definitional as I explained. If you can control everything except one or two other beings, then you can't control everything. Conversely if you can't be controlled by anything except one or two other beings, then you can be controlled by something. In either case, you aren't omnipotent as omni means everything.

(December 19, 2014 at 12:50 pm)pocaracas Wrote: No one understands that trinity thing... you can use words, but you don't seem to grasp the enormity of how the meaning of those words are challenging each other.

Care to explain how a deity is not a being in and of itself?
What you said "three separate beings that share the same deity" makes as much sense as "three separate beings that share the same being"...
What is a being, in this context?
What is a deity?

The good thing about it is we can use the STANDARD definitions for both terms, being and deity

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/being

Being: 1a : the quality or state of having existence b (1) : something conceivable as existing (2) : something that actually exists (3) : the totality of existing things c : conscious existence : life
2: the qualities that constitute an existent thing : essence; especially : personality
3: a living thing; especially : person


As we can see, the Christian God, according to the belief, has a quality or state of existence and is conceivable, and is conscious life...and is a living thing.


http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/deity

Deity: 1a : the rank or essential nature of a god : divinity b capitalized : god 1, supreme being
2: a god or goddess <the deities of ancient Greece>
3: one exalted or revered as supremely good or powerful

Divinity, god, supreme being, supremely good/powerful...all of this applies to the traditional theistic God.

It seems pretty clear-cut to me.

(December 19, 2014 at 12:50 pm)pocaracas Wrote: It seems you equate "being" to "person"... hmmm... that word is supposed to be referring to a "human being"... doesn't make sense that it should apply to a divine being. Maybe you want persona, which can then relate to personality... and that's something we can grasp a bit easier, as we can sort of understand multiple-personality disorders...

Ok, I will put it to you like this....there are three members of "Team God"...and those members are the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

(December 19, 2014 at 12:50 pm)pocaracas Wrote: Multiple personalities in one god, simultaneously, each attending to different needs, all working together to... errr... keep this tiny speck of land floating in space and all its human inhabitants... err... not all, just the believers, behaving properly, while they mature spiritually to achieve the afterlife?

Does that make sense?

I like.

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(December 19, 2014 at 2:23 pm)dyresand Wrote:

(December 19, 2014 at 2:21 pm)His_Majesty Wrote: Evolution in general hasn't been proven, that I am not ignorant about. That is the one thing that is certain.

you can't dispute this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q8DDIe_2cHM