I'm an atheist, but if I get pissed enough, I'd happily stick red-hot pokers into yo -- er, someone's eyes.

Also, glad to see Alpha Male posting with substance more dignified than horseshit.

Well if the survey wasn't proof enough, look how many regular church goers have come here in defense of torture.

(December 22, 2014 at 5:19 am)Alex K Wrote: Jesus, GC!... "Disobedience caused the creation of hell". I feel nauseous just reading that.

The only way this could get closer to an abusive parent relationship is if we put a sticker on it saying "caution: abusive parent". And you seem to have internalized this idea of passive aggressive abuse so much. Why don't you see what a sick gaslighting character this God of yours is.

Gaslighting reference FTW, perfect.

(December 22, 2014 at 10:51 pm)Surgenator Wrote:

(December 22, 2014 at 10:21 pm)Godschild Wrote: How does one find hope in wood or stone, gods made of wood and stone what do they offer?

GC

Believers of other faiths do not think their god(s) are made from wood and stone. The wood and stone statues are just a representation.

They started out as wood and stone, the people prayed to them and worshiped these gods of wood and stone. If the people today do not know the history of their gods then how much do they really mean to them.

GC

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(December 22, 2014 at 10:56 pm)Surgenator Wrote:

(December 22, 2014 at 10:21 pm)Godschild Wrote: No, that's the truth, sin is as a crime against a holy and righteous God, with no forgiveness there is no entrance into heaven, being hell is the only other place to spend eternity... well there it is, does that satisfy you, me leaving out the justice and giving you a reality to live with.

GC

Sin isn't a crime. Sin is just stuff a god doesn't like.

Death will reveal the truth.

GC

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(December 22, 2014 at 10:59 pm)Sionnach Wrote:

(December 22, 2014 at 10:56 pm)Surgenator Wrote: Sin is just stuff a god doesn't like.

Or better yet, as the Buddhist quote states, sin is invented nonsense.

This from a man who didn't do anything and a religion with a multitude of stone and wooden gods.

GC

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(December 22, 2014 at 11:37 pm)Nope Wrote:

Quote:Let me ask you this question, do you really believe Christ would not allow us to defend ourselves against mean people who are being plain old mean and, yet allow nonbelievers to protect themselves from the very same people?

GC

I apologize, I thought this was a rhetorical question.

If you ask if I think that you as a human being should have the right to defend yourself. Of course, I think that you should defend yourself and others.

The right of my citizenship in this country and I would if the need arises. I have Rottweilers at my home to help prevent the need for confrontation. They do work well.

Quote:Please remember, I don't believe that Jesus was god and I doubt that he even existed so asking me what I think that he requires from you is a bit like me asking you what Loki wants me to do.

I know you don't and did not expect you to answer as a believer but as one who knows about the scriptures, I was asking for an answer from the knowledge you have of what Jesus says in the scriptures. You're right I wouldn't know what Loki wants because I do not know who Loki is suppose to be. I know he's not real.

Quote:However, according to your own beliefs, Jesus turned the cheek and met death with little resistance and even forgave his killers. I think that your Jesus would not approve of his followers torturing people

You know what's strange here, you were able to answer your own thoughts about what Jesus would want, yet you couldn't do that same thing with my questions.
Jesus was the perfect man dying to give a covering for our sin.
Jesus was speaking to believers to turn their cheek when faced with abuse from others because we are believers, this is dealing with our spiritual stance. Jesus was not speaking to the unbelievers then or now, this is the reason I believe He was speaking about being harmed because of Him. There is nothing in the Bible, that I know of, that does not allow people to defend themselves from mean people. If Jesus meant that Christians could never defend ourselves or our countries we would not be very good citizens and, Jesus asked us to be responsible citizens. I have said and will continue to say torture is not good and should not be done, not just by Christians but everyone.

GC

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(December 23, 2014 at 1:37 am)Elskidor Wrote: Well if the survey wasn't proof enough, look how many regular church goers have come here in defense of torture.

I have a question for you, can or would you torture yourself?

GC

(December 22, 2014 at 11:57 pm)Minimalist Wrote:

Quote:Sin isn't a crime. Sin is just stuff a god doesn't like.

Sin is the shit that the men who invented god didn't like.

To keep other men in towing the line.

(December 22, 2014 at 10:23 am)alpha male Wrote: Knee-jerkers should consider this scenario:

Someone kidnaps your child. The kidnapper is caught, admits the crime, and says he has left the child tied up in the desert. The child will die if not found soon. The kidnapper will not say where the child is.

Suppose that torture would get the kidnapper to reveal where the child is. The child's life would be saved. The kidnapper would also get the lesser charge of kidnapper, rather than being charged with murder.

Would you support torture in this circumstance?

Yes, I think it's both practical and moral to do so in such a situation. As you note, it's a very specific and very tidy scenario. The poll in the OP referred to torture of suspected terrorists, and I would not be surprised if the people being polled were thinking of just the scenario you described. When the use of "EIT" was being discussed, I think it was Dick Cheney who said that they were able to stop at least one attack through the use of torture. And I think that fear fuels the poll results.

But giving a government that kind of power is dangerous because they will not offer the transparency of your example. I think that if they were forced to be fully transparent when seeking to use torture, and if there were severe repercussions for using it against someone who did not have useful information, it would not be used at all. But under the cover of secrecy and with a tacit understanding that they will not be held accountable for it, it's too easy to use it and justify it later, which legitimizes it as a tool in the war against terror.

I wonder how long before it would become a legitimate tool in "the war against crime."

(December 23, 2014 at 9:39 am)Tonus Wrote: I wonder how long before it would become a legitimate tool in "the war against crime."

Or against civil disobedience. Once the gates are open, there's no telling what might slip through.

(December 23, 2014 at 3:56 am)Godschild Wrote: I have said and will continue to say torture is not good and should not be done, not just by Christians but everyone.

Good. We agree and I am honestly glad.

Quote:I have a question for you, can or would you torture yourself?

GC

That is a hard question. I like to think that I would never hurt anyone but frightened people can lash out in ways that they normally wouldn't. That doesn't mean that their actions are right, but it is understandable why sometimes other wise good people do things that are reprehensible.

The problem is that we aren't talking about an emotionally distraught parent or individual who has temporarily acted out of character in the hopes of saving someone. We are talking about a government, which has a lot of power, using torture.

There is evidence that we tortured innocent people. Even if we get some information, how do we know that the person isn't just trying to stop the pain? We can never view the information as reliable. It also hurts the way that other countries view us and will probably cause more hatred toward us.

There is also the bigger question, at what point are we no longer the good guys? How long can you act like the bad guys and still consider yourself good?

One question that actually should frighten all Americans...Do you really trust a government that has crossed the lines to justify torturing people to not decide at one point that it will torture you also?

(December 23, 2014 at 9:52 am)Nope Wrote:

(December 23, 2014 at 3:56 am)Godschild Wrote: I have said and will continue to say torture is not good and should not be done, not just by Christians but everyone.

Good. We agree and I am honestly glad.

Yes we agree and most of the Christians I know would agree also, not all unfortunately, but most.

Quote:I have a question for you, can or would you torture yourself?

GC

Quote:That is a hard question. I like to think that I would never hurt anyone but frightened people can lash out in ways that they normally wouldn't. That doesn't mean that their actions are right, but it is understandable why sometimes other wise good people do things that are reprehensible.

Thanks for answering the question, though it was intended for another for a specific reason. Your answering the question caused me to realize that I could have worded it better.

The question I was asking Elskidor was this, could you torture your own body and mind.

GC

(December 23, 2014 at 9:39 am)Tonus Wrote: Yes, I think it's both practical and moral to do so in such a situation. As you note, it's a very specific and very tidy scenario. The poll in the OP referred to torture of suspected terrorists, and I would not be surprised if the people being polled were thinking of just the scenario you described. When the use of "EIT" was being discussed, I think it was Dick Cheney who said that they were able to stop at least one attack through the use of torture. And I think that fear fuels the poll results.

Sure, although I doubt they were thinking of my scenario. More likely thinking of pictures from the Boston Marathon bombing or something like that.

Quote:But giving a government that kind of power is dangerous because they will not offer the transparency of your example. I think that if they were forced to be fully transparent when seeking to use torture, and if there were severe repercussions for using it against someone who did not have useful information, it would not be used at all. But under the cover of secrecy and with a tacit understanding that they will not be held accountable for it, it's too easy to use it and justify it later, which legitimizes it as a tool in the war against terror.

I wonder how long before it would become a legitimate tool in "the war against crime."

abaris Wrote:Or against civil disobedience. Once the gates are open, there's no telling what might slip through.

These arguments are examples of the slippery slope fallacy. You wouldn't accept a theist saying regarding gay marriage that once the gates are open, there's no telling what might slip through - marriage to children, animals, groups, etc. This is the same thing.