(December 25, 2014 at 1:53 pm)Chuck Wrote:

(December 25, 2014 at 1:50 pm)Minimalist Wrote: had been as on top of things as the Chinese maybe the world wouldn't be so fucked up?

http://apnews.excite.com/article/2014122...2c756.html

Maybe there is a reason why the Chinese empire is still around after 2000 years, where as the one afflicted with the jesus cult isn't.

The role Christianity in the fall of Rome is debatable, as they declining before they became Christian and the eastern roman empire was christian and stood till 1476.

(December 25, 2014 at 2:00 pm)Parkers Tan Wrote: Freedom of conscience should not be abrogated.

Freedom of conscience is a but default position taken where there is insufficient information to reliably predict what the so called conscience actually is and what it entails for those others who would seek to be free of the consequences of the likely actions of the conscience holders.

(December 25, 2014 at 2:58 pm)Lemonvariable72 Wrote: The role Christianity in the fall of Rome is debatable, as they declining before they became Christian and the eastern roman empire was christian and stood till 1476.

Till 1453, but it was only a remnant then. Pretty much the city of Constantinople and nothing else.

Anyway, I don't find it particularly admirable to supress religion. I don't want to be supressed because of what I think and I extend the same courtesy to others as well. The only thing I do want, is for religion to stay out of politics.

(December 25, 2014 at 2:55 pm)Esquilax Wrote:

(December 25, 2014 at 2:08 pm)Minimalist Wrote: When has the fucking church ever advocated "freedom" of anything?

Well, they're very passionate about freedom of religion.

At times....



at others, not so much.

(December 25, 2014 at 3:16 pm)abaris Wrote: Anyway, I don't find it particularly admirable to supress religion. I don't want to be supressed because of what I think and I extend the same courtesy to others as well. The only thing I do want, is for religion to stay out of politics.

Religion, particularly of the evangelical christian variety, does not exist to stay out of politics. It exists to attack otherwise rational people in their least rational area so as to gradually break them down and make them susceptible to wide spread intrusion of a particular variety into all aspect of civil life, politics not by any means the least of goals.

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(December 25, 2014 at 2:58 pm)Lemonvariable72 Wrote:

(December 25, 2014 at 1:53 pm)Chuck Wrote: Maybe there is a reason why the Chinese empire is still around after 2000 years, where as the one afflicted with the jesus cult isn't.

The role Christianity in the fall of Rome is debatable, as they declining before they became Christian and the eastern roman empire was christian and stood till 1476.

If Christianity found so debatable an argument that's it has determined to be useful to further itself. it will burn you at the stake for debating.

(December 25, 2014 at 2:53 pm)Minimalist Wrote:

(December 25, 2014 at 2:12 pm)Parkers Tan Wrote: When have I claimed they did?

My point was political, not theological. I had though that was obvious.

Quote:We are satisfied that there can be but little liberty on earth while men worship a tyrant in heaven.
-- Robert Green Ingersoll

It's hard to expand freedoms by taking them away, as you seem to be arguing.

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(December 25, 2014 at 3:08 pm)Chuck Wrote:

(December 25, 2014 at 2:00 pm)Parkers Tan Wrote: Freedom of conscience should not be abrogated.

Freedom of conscience is a but default position taken where there is insufficient information to reliably predict what the so called conscience actually is and what it entails for those others who would seek to be free of the consequences of the likely actions of the conscience holders.

Whether or not we agree with what is being said, all people should be concerned when governments get into the business of regulating thinking.

I'm surprised I have to make such an obvious point.

Some..times.. just some times... some people need to be under a communism.
i'm not saying its a bad thing or good thing. But come on when there is people doing horrible things and kill each other....
then yes they need there freedom limited big time.

(December 25, 2014 at 7:24 pm)dyresand Wrote: Some..times.. just some times... some people need to be under a communism.
i'm not saying its a bad thing or good thing. But come on when there is people doing horrible things and kill each other....
then yes they need there freedom limited big time.

Sorry, but sometimes you don't make any sense at all. What's your actual point?

If it is about limiting freedom, any freedom, I'm wth Parker. You can't argue freedom by taking away the freedom of others, even if you don't agree with them.

(December 25, 2014 at 7:19 pm)Parkers Tan Wrote:

(December 25, 2014 at 2:53 pm)Minimalist Wrote:

It's hard to expand freedoms by taking them away, as you seem to be arguing.

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(December 25, 2014 at 3:08 pm)Chuck Wrote: Freedom of conscience is a but default position taken where there is insufficient information to reliably predict what the so called conscience actually is and what it entails for those others who would seek to be free of the consequences of the likely actions of the conscience holders.

Whether or not we agree with what is being said, all people should be concerned when governments get into the business of regulating thinking.

I'm surprised I have to make such an obvious point.

It is one thing to be concerned. It is another to reflexively deem it wrong based solely on some airy principle that can not be used to accurately or reliably predict each possible consequence of its own implementation.

In the end, if maximizing the practical extent and durability of freedom of conscience is to be set as a goal in itself, then I do not believe that archiving of that goal is in a practical sense is compatible with implementing a reflexive attitude of uncritical tolerance all self-styled "conscience". Freedom of conscience should not be a suicide pact if it were to survive.

The Roman Empire quite successfully transformed itself into a religion.
Making the spiritual successors to the Roman emperors, the popes heir to a temporal empire the Casears could've only dreamed of.