once the cue ball is on the way to the rack there is no changing what balls are going to fall into what pockets.

In other words whatever set everything into motion sealed our fate.

Oh IDK....while hard determinism is difficult to escape, I wouldn't go so far as to consider that support for our traditional concept of a "sealed fate".

(December 27, 2014 at 10:41 am)A Fisherman Wrote: once the cue ball is on the way to the rack there is no changing what balls are going to fall into what pockets.

In other words whatever set everything into motion sealed our fate.

What about quantum uncertainty?

everything is vibrating that is not a guess quantum physics has proven it.
Some initiating force or boom or zap had to kick off the show. At whatever angles that happened set into motion all the rest.

This meaning that if you do happen to change your mind at the last second and save the day then that was a result of the original motion.

it is a paradox, a catch 22.

fate has to be real because it is whatever ends up happening anyway by definition.

It is impossible to prove otherwise because no matter what happens it can still be called fate by definition.

Same problem people have understanding God.
God is a paradox, a catch 22

God has to be real because God is whatever exists and happens anyway. It is all God's will.

It is impossible to prove otherwise without changing the definition of God or Fate.

if you are insisting either side of the argument is right you are missing the point. I think the original idea behind it all was a buddy trying to trip his other buddy out with thoughts. Concepts. Higher learning and all that stuff.
So they could get a bigger kick out of life.

Got to do something to get those endorphins pumping right?

(December 27, 2014 at 10:41 am)A Fisherman Wrote: once the cue ball is on the way to the rack there is no changing what balls are going to fall into what pockets.

In other words whatever set everything into motion sealed our fate.

Wrong!

A gust of wind, temperature fluctuation, heavy speeding semi out front, earthquake, hell a drunken brawl. Any of these can change "what balls are going to fall into what pockets".

(December 27, 2014 at 4:17 am)bennyboy Wrote: Okay, then at least you can agree that free will as as real as this metaphysical homunculus, upon which almost all our motivations and sense of abstraction are founded?

"Did somebody mention me?"

Rather....

...Quite literally.

Free will is like an imaginary MC Escher painting, depicting a series of different sized escalators zigzagging past one another, above, below, to the right and left; your metaphysical homunculus is always traveling on one, and continually being nudged by millions of microscopic imps to jump off whatever escalator he is on, onto another that is passing by. He just doesn't realize he's being nudged.

When science finally proves we don't have free will, all the theists will... ignore it like every other scientific discovery. Ah well. But they can't choose otherwise, bless 'em.

What a weird area to work in huh? Possibly determining that you don't got shit!

(December 27, 2014 at 11:05 am)A Fisherman Wrote: God has to be real because God ..

Maybe not.

Can anyone who has posted to this thread and read all the responses discern whether or not any of the posts show evidence of having been gestated in a mind either capable or incapable of real free will ??

(December 27, 2014 at 5:49 pm)vorlon13 Wrote: Can anyone who has posted to this thread and read all the responses discern whether or not any of the posts show evidence of having been gestated in a mind either capable or incapable of real free will ??

I think it's obvious we have free-will. But then again, I think it's obvious we are a soul as well.