(December 29, 2014 at 3:16 pm)Lek Wrote: I don't pretend all those examples don't exist, except that God never said that his favorite hobby was genocide. In the old testament we were living under God's wrath. Jesus fulfilled the old covenant and now we are under the covenant of grace. We are to live according to Jesus. I could make the same kind or remarks about past and present atheist leaders. That's why we can't generalize about how atheists or christians would run a nation.

So, it's okay to kill people when god is pissed, but not after he settles down?

(December 29, 2014 at 2:44 pm)Lek Wrote: You guys are such wonderful free-thinking people. Hitler wasn't a devout catholic. If he was he wouldn't have murdered all those people, since Christ commanded us to love our neighbor as ourselves. Use your head. Just saying that you're a christian doesn't make you a christian. Hitler used any means at his disposable to bring about his plan. Was Hitler better or worse than Stalin, the atheist?

Remember when Christ commanded Samuel

Quote: jesus said:
1 Samuel 15 King James Version (KJV)

15 Samuel also said unto Saul, The Lord sent me to anoint thee to be king over his people, over Israel: now therefore hearken thou unto the voice of the words of the Lord.

2 Thus saith the Lord of hosts, I remember that which Amalek did to Israel, how he laid wait for him in the way, when he came up from Egypt.

3 Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.

Great stuff there. If only Christ was more christ like in the front part of the book like he was in the back of it.

That trinity thing's a bitch, huh?

(December 29, 2014 at 3:26 pm)Faith No More Wrote:

(December 29, 2014 at 3:16 pm)Lek Wrote: I don't pretend all those examples don't exist, except that God never said that his favorite hobby was genocide. In the old testament we were living under God's wrath. Jesus fulfilled the old covenant and now we are under the covenant of grace. We are to live according to Jesus. I could make the same kind or remarks about past and present atheist leaders. That's why we can't generalize about how atheists or christians would run a nation.

So, it's okay to kill people when god is pissed, but not after he settles down?

i find it funny for a Christian to call a Hitler not a true catholic when god in the bible loves genocide. Lek Hitler isn't Christian or apart of it so why bother calling him a not a true Catholic when you aren't even catholic.

(December 29, 2014 at 2:44 pm)Lek Wrote: Hitler wasn't a devout catholic. If he was he wouldn't have murdered all those people, since Christ commanded us to love our neighbor as ourselves. Use your head. Just saying that you're a christian doesn't make you a christian. Hitler used any means at his disposable to bring about his plan. Was Hitler better or worse than Stalin, the atheist?

I tend to agree that Hitler didn't give much about catholicism, but not for the reasons you give. He was certainly not an atheist and invoked the Lord not only in public speeches but also in his writings and in private company.

It's also worth noting that he was the accepted leader of Germany by protestants as well as Catholics because of the fundamental bullshit in the bible of every leader being sent by god.

Also I would like your take on figures such as Ante Pavelic and his theocracy in Croatia with monks running his concentration camps. And there's of course good old Francisco Franco in Spain, darling boy of the church and a rather weak one at that, since he only managed to kill 250.000 people.

Let's also not forget Augusto Pinochet in Chile, who managed to kill about the same number. Brought to the poor chilenian people courtesy of the USA and supported by the church, since he was a good catholic.

The list could be continued.

(December 29, 2014 at 3:16 pm)Lek Wrote: In the old testament we were living under God's wrath. Jesus fulfilled the old covenant and now we are under the covenant of grace. We are to live according to Jesus. I could make the same kind or remarks about past and present atheist leaders. That's why we can't generalize about how atheists or christians would run a nation.

So... we shouldn't use god, or the heroes of the old testament, as role models? I guess it's a step in the right direction. Not as good as them never having been mass killers in the first place, but... baby steps.

(December 29, 2014 at 2:55 pm)Lek Wrote: Very good. I accept your list and I could give you a list of great christian leaders five times that size. So maybe we can agree not to make sweeping generalizations about how a christian or atheist would govern a nation.

Obviously you're not grasping the point: unreasonable dogmas often succeed to the detriment of scientific principles and sound moral philosophy, and this is sometimes reflected in the worship of state leaders believed to be endowed with otherworldly powers or an individual's personal deity. The advantage of atheist tyrants is that their ideas tend to subsequently die when the madman does, an outcome much more difficult to achieve when a religious tradition with thousands of years of ingrained superstition is involved.

(December 29, 2014 at 2:50 pm)Lek Wrote: Because of leaders like Kim Jon Un, Mao Tse Tung, Joseph Stalin, among others. These guys have a very bad record on humans rights. I mean they're murders and persecutors. Maybe there's some good good atheist leaders out there somewhere.

Have you taken a look at modern atheist leaders, rather than just the few that happen to agree with the position you've already accepted? Australia had an atheist leader for a while: no murders. Or, hell, you can actually, like, look back into the past and see plenty of leaders who weren't the three you theists always seem to pick: Here's a list. It took me five minutes to find. So how dare you pretend that those three examples- none of whom committed their atrocities in the name of atheism- are perfectly representative? Doesn't that seem a little.... dishonest, to you?

But because I'm not one to be dishonest in service to my ideological presuppositions, let me take a minute to help you out using the research you evidently didn't want to do yourself. If you wanted to find an atheist who actually was a poor leader in service to atheism (it's a debatable point, but possibly the strongest example in your favor I've come across) here's Enver Hoxha of Albania, who turned his country into an atheist state and arrested priests and religious practitioners for show trials. This is as close as you will come, in my experience, to an atheist leader whose human rights violations can be directly tied to his atheism. I give you this so that maybe you and your fellow presuppositional knuckleheads (don't think I haven't noticed that you've also defined "true christianity" by only positive attributes. That's some prime fiat dishonesty there) can at least be historically accurate when you try to misrepresent the history of atheism in politics. It's on me.

(December 29, 2014 at 3:26 pm)Faith No More Wrote: So, it's okay to kill people when god is pissed, but not after he settles down?

It's not so much about God being pissed , but that the price for sin has now been paid.

(December 29, 2014 at 5:50 pm)Lek Wrote: It's not so much about God being pissed , but that the price for sin has now been paid.

I'm afraid to even ask, but you mean the god sacrificing himself to god part again?

(December 29, 2014 at 3:46 pm)h4ym4n Wrote: Remember when Christ commanded Samuel

Quote: jesus said:
1 Samuel 15 King James Version (KJV)

15 Samuel also said unto Saul, The Lord sent me to anoint thee to be king over his people, over Israel: now therefore hearken thou unto the voice of the words of the Lord.

2 Thus saith the Lord of hosts, I remember that which Amalek did to Israel, how he laid wait for him in the way, when he came up from Egypt.

3 Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.

Great stuff there. If only Christ was more christ like in the front part of the book like he was in the back of it.

That trinity thing's a bitch, huh?

Christ is the same God. All that the Father did in the old testament also belongs to Jesus. No one has ever answered the question that I keep asking. Were the Amalekites better off dying quickly by the sword or dying in the way most people do?