(January 4, 2015 at 11:44 am)Rhythm Wrote: Hey, I already waived the white flag,

Yet you go and add a paragraph after I've already responded. Go figure.

Quote:IDK, maybe your parents never exposed you to any other way of managing a relationship - maybe it was easier for them (and clearly for you) to reduce the whole thing down to a sitcom punchline...and I suppose that if this is the case it's understandable to find you, a grown man - a married man, espousing the position you've espoused here.

Yes, the position that a married man should spend time with his wife rather than strippers is just silly. I must've picked it up from Three's Company or something.

Quote:If I told my wife that the way I managed to -not- cheat on her had to do with avoiding temptation....I think she'd be insulted. The girl at the checkout line exists, none of us has to go to a stripclub to find temptation (and for many, there isn't any temptation there - you don't go..right?)... if fidelity is related to removing oneself from temptation then it's a wonder that any of us remain faithful at all.

The girl at the checkout line has clothes on and won't give you a lap dance.

It happens (but I fail to see why it would matter...I'm agreeing with you).

Don't back away now - after you've done such a wonderful job at making your case. Strippers, checkout girls...IDK..there are some freaky motherfuckers out there - "temptation" is a nebulous set. Could be avoiding cotton balls and guys named Jerry. The girl at the checkout line is clothed, and I haven't propositioned her - but what would it matter? Does that mean that I (or anyone else) couldn't be tempted? Was your wife naked and giving you a lap dance when you first realized you wanted to roll in the hay with her? Would a naked girl or a lap dance tempt you to cheat?

(January 4, 2015 at 11:40 am)alpha male Wrote:

(January 4, 2015 at 10:59 am)Rhythm Wrote: Still an issue of birds and feathers, if I had to guess.

Your guess is wrong. I'm speaking mostly of men I've worked with, not guys from my church. The guys from church generally don't talk about their sex lives with each other.

Quote:That's good, it would suck to be stuck in a loveless marriage.

You would know, strip-club boy. You're not going out for lap dances because you're so deeply in love with your wife.

Quote:The method, however, that you've proposed to achieve this..... sounds like something a kid would dream up. Gotta stay away from the candy jar cause you just can't trust yourself?

Avoiding temptation is not a childish tactic. Most people giving advice on dieting would advise keeping junk food out of the house as much as possible. It's a common and prudent practice.

Quote:I'm conflicted

Yes, you're conflicted as you know I'm mostly right, but now you're in a hole and don't want to quit or admit that you're wrong.

Quote: - normally I like to lift people up out of the mud that our gender stereotypes and cultural ticks have imposed....

So you admit that my views are common.

Quote:but with you...I kind of want to accept that you're just a shitty person, deep down

Exactly. You want to think poorly of me, so you argue against some pretty common advice.

Quote: - and that the shitty things you say about yourself (and then hilariously extend to others) might actually be true....in your specific case.

You contradict yourself. If my views are incorrect, they wouldn't have become stereotypes and "cultural ticks."

Quote:Meh, fuck it, you win. You're a divorce proceeding waiting to happen. Your wife doesn't trust you at strip clubs because you don't trust yourself, and shouldn't...because you can't be trusted. Given too much opportunity you'd invariably end up snorting coke off some hookers tits and getting blown in the alley behind the dumpster. Happy?

Even if your last statement is true, it's incorrect to conclude that I'm headed toward divorce, as I wisely avoid getting too much opportunity.

Um what the fuck do strip joints have to do with marriage? Religion teaches you that sex is bad, instead of teaching communication and consent. It isn't any of your business what other couples consent to.

"Love" isn't about looking or jealousy to prove love. Love is about honesty and openness and consent. It has nothing to do with someone going to a strip joint or not going to a strip joint,

(January 4, 2015 at 12:14 pm)Rhythm Wrote: It happens.

Don't back away now - after you've done such a wonderful job at making your case.

I'm not backing away. Although you claim to have waved the white flag, you seem unable to give me the last word.

Quote:Strippers, checkout girls...IDK..there are some freaky motherfuckers out there - "temptation" is a nebulous set.

No, the difference between a grocery store and a strip club is not nebulous.

Quote:Could be avoiding cotton balls and guys named Jerry. The girl at the checkout line is clothed, and I haven't propositioned her - but what would it matter?

Among other things, it matters that you know you'd likely get shot down by the girl at the checkout and publicly embarrassed, but at the strip club they'll pretend to be interested as long as you have money.

Quote:Does that mean that I (or anyone else) couldn't be tempted? Was your wife naked and giving you a lap dance when you first realized you wanted to roll in the hay with her?

False dichotomy. Some environments are more tempting than others. That's why you go to strip clubs rather than hanging out at grocery stores.

Quote:Would a naked girl or a lap dance tempt you to cheat?

LOL... would a lap dance tempt me to cheat? A lap dance is cheating IMO. I wouldn't want another man pawing at my wife even if she kept her clothes on, and likewise she wouldn't like me getting lap dances. We do those things to each other and are quite happy with it. We think this is a loving marriage. You somehow think that in a loving marriage the spouses are apart from each other getting felt up by strangers but keeping their clothes on, then coming together at the end of the night for intercourse.

(January 4, 2015 at 12:29 pm)alpha male Wrote:

(January 4, 2015 at 12:14 pm)Rhythm Wrote: It happens.

Don't back away now - after you've done such a wonderful job at making your case.

I'm not backing away. Although you claim to have waved the white flag, you seem unable to give me the last word.

Quote:Strippers, checkout girls...IDK..there are some freaky motherfuckers out there - "temptation" is a nebulous set.

No, the difference between a grocery store and a strip club is not nebulous.

Quote:Could be avoiding cotton balls and guys named Jerry. The girl at the checkout line is clothed, and I haven't propositioned her - but what would it matter?

Among other things, it matters that you know you'd likely get shot down by the girl at the checkout and publicly embarrassed, but at the strip club they'll pretend to be interested as long as you have money.

Quote:Does that mean that I (or anyone else) couldn't be tempted? Was your wife naked and giving you a lap dance when you first realized you wanted to roll in the hay with her?

False dichotomy. Some environments are more tempting than others. That's why you go to strip clubs rather than hanging out at grocery stores.

Quote:Would a naked girl or a lap dance tempt you to cheat?

LOL... would a lap dance tempt me to cheat? A lap dance is cheating IMO. I wouldn't want another man pawing at my wife even if she kept her clothes on, and likewise she wouldn't like me getting lap dances. We do those things to each other and are quite happy with it. We think this is a loving marriage. You somehow think that in a loving marriage the spouses are apart from each other getting felt up by strangers but keeping their clothes on, then coming together at the end of the night for intercourse.

"Cheating" is such a childish word. It makes relationships sound like a game.

A lap dance is not wrong if the partner doesn't mind their partner going. Sex is not the problem, lying and lack of consent is the problem.

Is there anything left unsaid here? By now JesusChrist'sLover has either figured out that his life sucking wife is a parasite and left her, or else he has re-nailed himself to his cross. I guess we still get to comment on the kind of relationship we prefer. And we atheists can go on thinking that keeping vows out of respect to ones partner is more noble than doing so out of the fear of god.

(January 4, 2015 at 12:33 pm)whateverist Wrote: Is there anything left unsaid here? By now JesusChrist'sLover has either figured out that his life sucking wife is a parasite and left her, or else he has re-nailed himself to his cross. I guess we still get to comment on the kind of relationship we prefer. And we atheists can go on thinking that keeping vows out of respect to ones partner is more noble than doing so out of the fear of god.

God belief is a stupid reason to stay with someone. And even vows are unrealistic. It sounds nice and pretty that you would stay with someone because you love them, but in the real world things can and do change and if you cannot work it out, trying to force it makes things worse and bitter and even sometimes violent.

I am divorced, and sure it was a kick in the gut when she told me she wanted to leave me. But I could not force her to feel something she was not feeling any more and for her to stay with me out of some stupid utopian idea, I had to let her go. It would have been worse on both of us if it had been forced.

I don't disagree. The main thing is the honesty. Vows don't have to be eternal, they just have to be disavowed in an upfront and respectful manner. Making or perpetuating false vows is a character flaw.

(January 4, 2015 at 12:29 pm)alpha male Wrote: I'm not backing away. Although you claim to have waved the white flag, you seem unable to give me the last word.

The last word is for a conversation that ends.....I thought I mentioned awhile back that I wasn't interested in seeing the end of this conversation?

Quote:No, the difference between a grocery store and a strip club is not nebulous.

To you, but isn't it possible that this is an expression of your own sexuality? Maybe it's checkout girls..and not strippers, that rev my engine?

Quote:Among other things, it matters that you know you'd likely get shot down by the girl at the checkout and publicly embarrassed,

So, happens to guys all the time..doesn;t seem to stop us from being "tempted". Does the prospect of humiliation make your penis retreat?

Quote: but at the strip club they'll pretend to be interested as long as you have money.

Coke works better...I'm always explaining this to people.

Quote:False dichotomy. Some environments are more tempting than others.

Sure, to you. That list will be different for me. You're imagining that a strip club is the tempting place when, for me, this is simply not the case. Strippers don't hold my fidelity between their tits, rgr?

Quote:That's why you go to strip clubs rather than hanging out at grocery stores.

I spend more time looking at checkout girls, personally. If I had to guess...I';d chalk it up to our relative familiarity. Strippers just don;t have the wow effect on me. They're pretty girls (mostly) - but I'm used to them...so whatever allure or temptation they may hold in your mind just doesn't exist in mine. Is that difficult for you to conceptualize? That what turns you on doesn't turn me on? That in order to maintain -my- fidelity, if it were an issue of avoidance...I'd have to avoid grocery stores, libraries, and zoos - rather than strip clubs?

Quote:LOL... would a lap dance tempt me to cheat? A lap dance is cheating IMO.

Cool, and the naked bit..is that the temptation then? Is that the baited hook. They dangle their ass in front of you, and like a fish, you'd bite?

Quote: I wouldn't want another man pawing at my wife even if she kept her clothes on, and likewise she wouldn't like me getting lap dances. We do those things to each other and are quite happy with it. We think this is a loving marriage.

Probably, but again, birds of a feather. It would surprise me if you were in a successful marriage with someone whollly different from yourself in this regard.

Quote: You somehow think that in a loving marriage the spouses are apart from each other getting felt up by strangers but keeping their clothes on, then coming together at the end of the night for intercourse.

Sounds more like you're repressed id fantasizing about how the other half lives. Is that tempting, to you? When you imagine it, does it seem dirty in a repulsive or attractive way?

He may have preferred a bat of cap to a wave of the white flag?