(January 10, 2015 at 2:51 pm)strawdawg Wrote: I can see people not believing in God but why hate it?

I had two uncles neither believed in God, they didn't go to church. They were good family men and good providers. They didn't hate religion they just didn't want to hear it.

Don't know about an actual God, but the character a lot of people describe and name 'God' seems to be a hopped-up Oriental potentate as capricious and cruel as an angry Djinn.

I don't think 'hate' describes how I feel about that character, it's more like how I feel towards Sauron or Voldemort or the Sith Emperor. They're evil, but they're not real...but if someone says Sauron is real and a good role model, I get a little worried. If serious, I might point out that not only is Sauron not real, he's evil.

If your version of God isn't of that type, there might be nothing wrong with it except that it's probably not real.

(January 13, 2015 at 1:16 pm)Parkers Tan Wrote:

(January 13, 2015 at 11:37 am)IATIA Wrote: What would that evidence be? Just because one believes in their mind that machines are testing and validating a reality does not make it real as it is all still in one's mind. All perception is within one's mind and there is no way to validate reality.

The fact that we're having this conversation means that we are each perceiving an occurrence. Shared perceptions between two otherwise unconnected minds would be evidence that those perceptions are at least somewhat accurate.

That's intersubjectivity, assuming you believe that they're another person and not just another part of your head games.

Quote:Now, if you wish to argue that you're not real, have at it.

That'd be pointless, after all... Everything is real. It has to be... otherwise it wouldn't exist.

At the end of the day, solipsism is anything but wrong... but unlike the solipsists: I am not faithless.

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Just as are my thoughts evidence for my being... so too is any descriptor to define that which already is.

The solipsistic view would still be that it all exists... but in one's head/in their flawed perceptions of the universe. I am not so full of myself as to believe I am causing all of this, that I could even do this... and I've a talent for world and character building at that.

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(January 13, 2015 at 1:25 pm)Mister Agenda Wrote: I don't think 'hate' describes how I feel about that character, it's more like how I feel towards Sauron or Voldemort or the Sith Emperor. They're evil, but they're not real...but if someone says Sauron is real and a good role model, I get a little worried. If serious, I might point out that not only is Sauron not real, he's evil.

If your version of God isn't of that type, there might be nothing wrong with it except that it's probably not real.

They're not REALLY real, eh?

Sauron's kind of impersonal evil... I'm not wholly convinced that he's not a good role model. He took what he wanted, and brought the world to its knees... that's impressive.

Solipsism / Cartesian philosophy are fun when you're a college sophomore. Then you grow up.

The thing about solipsism is that it doesn't get you anywhere. Sure, this could all be a hallucination. For all I know I'm a trans-dimensional turnip in the cozmik vegetable looney-bin, tripping on LSD25. But so what? It looks real, it feels real, it has testable, coherent, consistent laws of physics with which I can manipulate what appears to be matter and energy to achieve predictable goals.

So even though it is impossible to empirically demonstrate that anything other than 'me' exists, I might as well act as though it does, and live my life as though it does. It makes no difference, so long as this apparent reality continues to be consistent and predictable.

Or I could sit around smoking pot and asking "dude, have you ever, like, y'know, ever really looked at your hands?"

I engage in conversation within my dream realities.

(January 13, 2015 at 1:50 pm)IATIA Wrote: I engage in conversation within my dream realities.

You mean as in sleeping dreaming? I guess everyone does that.

(January 13, 2015 at 1:43 pm)Davka Wrote: The thing about solipsism is that it doesn't get you anywhere. Sure, this could all be a hallucination.

Yup, and ultimately, who cares? All we have to work with, is what appears in little-bitty brains. Real, simulated, or a hallucination? Doesn't matter as we can only act as though it were real. What else are you going to do?

I had a dream last night that I put my fancy new DSLR on top of something hot and the lens and face of the camera got melted and damaged. Sure seemed real in the dream. I was thinking damnnit!, now I've got to buy another *@&#&@& camera! Then I woke up. Poof! Not real.

(January 13, 2015 at 1:33 pm)Alice Wrote:

(January 13, 2015 at 1:16 pm)Parkers Tan Wrote: The fact that we're having this conversation means that we are each perceiving an occurrence. Shared perceptions between two otherwise unconnected minds would be evidence that those perceptions are at least somewhat accurate.

That's intersubjectivity, assuming you believe that they're another person and not just another part of your head games.

Yes. And it is evidence that there is something there about which we can compare our perceptions, that exists independent of those perceptions. What are the odds of two people holding a conversation, and both of those conversations being the solipsistic imaginings of each party involved? Zero, because if both people are imaginary, then the conversation isn't happening.

So -- at least one of those people must be real. Which one? And why?

It's much more parsimonious to ascribe reality to both people.

That means that their intersubjective comparisons may well be describing an objective reality insofar as they overlap.

And that's why I say that this conversation is evidence that solipsism is not a useful frame of reference for understanding personal experience.

(January 13, 2015 at 1:33 pm)Alice Wrote:

Quote:Now, if you wish to argue that you're not real, have at it.

That'd be pointless, after all... Everything is real. It has to be... otherwise it wouldn't exist.

Exactly.

(January 13, 2015 at 1:33 pm)Alice Wrote: At the end of the day, solipsism is anything but wrong... but unlike the solipsists: I am not faithless.

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Just as are my thoughts evidence for my being... so too is any descriptor to define that which already is.

The solipsistic view would still be that it all exists... but in one's head/in their flawed perceptions of the universe. I am not so full of myself as to believe I am causing all of this, that I could even do this... and I've a talent for world and character building at that.

Flawed perceptions are one thing. We all have them from time to time, and there's no argument about them that I know of. That is a far cry from positing that there is no objective reality, or that we cannot demonstrate one.

The above post "I engage in conversation within my dream realities." was supposed to be in response to:

(January 13, 2015 at 1:16 pm)Parkers Tan Wrote: The fact that we're having this conversation means that we are each perceiving an occurrence. Shared perceptions between two otherwise unconnected minds would be evidence that those perceptions are at least somewhat accurate. Now, if you wish to argue that you're not real, have at it.