So I'm willing to bet that you guys have sharpened your skills at quickly and effectively dismembering... err.... dismantling Christians, as they ignorantly waltz onto this forum and begin their combination of begging/whining/screaming and then walk around with their fingers in their ears, humming while they receive reasonable posts in response.

I'm also willing to bet that using words like God with a capital G, Christ, Jesus, Bible and Christian is abit like throwing chum into the water and watching the sharks as they can't help but get excited and exuberant as they rip apart their meal.

SO... based on these assumptions I've made, I'm left with very little in the way of opening an intelligent dialog without it quickly spiraling into the usual fest of aggression and defensiveness without making myself look like a troll...

In an attempt to reduce the aforementioned process, I'll simply lay my cards out on the table.

I like to make fun of Christians. It rocks. It's so easy, so enjoyable, and so entertaining, that I would love to do it all day long. Yes. I am a Christian. Funny how that works.

I am a Christian Universalist... which means that (GASP!) I don't actually care about converting anyone... so I don't really give two hoots about "your soul" or "saving" you some how. It also gives me the luxury of not becoming emotionally involved with my posts, which is usually where the Christian defensiveness mechanisms come into play.

So, i suppose since that's laid out on the table, I'd like to narrow the topic down specifically to Christian Universalism (not to be confused with unitarian)... I approach my belief with alittle bit of Agnosticism, so don't be surprised if I duck afew left hooks by simply stepping back. .

And......... GO!

Why don't you begin by explaining what Christian Universalism is (for those of us too lazy to look it up)? Maybe fill us in on the things that you believe and how they differ from other Christian sects. What are your thoughts on the bible(s) and how literally they should be taken? Do you accept the Nicene Creed? Etc.

Oh... and what parts of Christianity do you enjoy making fun of? My personal favorite is Creationism.

Don't worry. Theists can get along just fine here. We (not most of us anyway) do not go on the attack just because someone mentions a word relating to religion. Heheh. In fact, most of us are quite nice as long as you are. If we think something you say is refutable, it will be refuted. If someone thinks it's stupid, that someone may tell you that. As long as you can remain civil and keep a good sense of humor, you'll find that the discussions can become quite fun.

(August 6, 2010 at 5:47 pm)Paul the Human Wrote: Why don't you begin by explaining what Christian Universalism is (for those of us too lazy to look it up)? Maybe fill us in on the things that you believe and how they differ from other Christian sects. What are your thoughts on the bible(s) and how literally they should be taken? Do you accept the Nicene Creed? Etc.

Oh... and what parts of Christianity do you enjoy making fun of? My personal favorite is Creationism.

Don't worry. Theists can get along just fine here. We (not most of us anyway) do not go on the attack just because someone mentions a word relating to religion. Heheh. In fact, most of us are quite nice as long as you are. If we think something you say is refutable, it will be refuted. If someone thinks it's stupid, that someone may tell you that. As long as you can remain civil and keep a good sense of humor, you'll find that the discussions can become quite fun.

Certainly! Christian Universalism, the belief that all are saved, is a belief that dates back to the original schools of thought in the early church. Infact, it was actually the dominant belief until the Roman Catholic Church emerged. At best, it is difficult to control the masses as the RCC wanted to do, without the use of fear and guilt... and the Protestant movement retained the view of eternal torment, as they too cannot fund their causes without capitalizing on these human attributes as well.

Proof for the conclusions that Christian Universalism hold are couched within original Greek/Hebrew/Aramaic texts... many (including myself) reject most modern English translations as they are more Interpretations than actual Translations. Also, the infallibility of the Bible is rejected, as there are too many differing texts to pick one and go with it. However, the similarities between those texts are concrete enough to ascertain the meaning the author was trying to convey.

I know that scripture holds little to no merit here, so I won't spout it off like a loony, but I will say that the application of logic is another huge factor in most Universalists...

One simple example is Free Will. Logic would dictate that if a being exists that is omnipotent and omnipresent, Free Will cannot exist. If that being is all-loving, hell as we understand it cannot exist. Etc etc...

Let me know if that's a good start!

PS. Depending on which version of the Nicene Creed you are referring to, I reject most of them... some of the original versions I would semi-agree with, but even as early as the 300's, Eternal Torment and other guilt-ridden ideas had pervaded the church... funnily enough, many of them have pagan origins.

So, a pick and mix version of Christianity then

Wikipedia Wrote:Christian Universalism is a set of theological beliefs about God, Christ, and the origin and destiny of the human soul, emphasizing the unconditional parental Love of God and God's plan to redeem, restore, and transform all people through Christ. This spiritual belief system has existed in various forms at various times during the past 2000 years.

That doesn't sound like what you just described.

(August 6, 2010 at 6:12 pm)Darwinian Wrote: So, a pick and mix version of Christianity then

It's like the buffet of the Christian religion!

(August 6, 2010 at 6:12 pm)chasm Wrote:

Wikipedia Wrote:Christian Universalism is a set of theological beliefs about God, Christ, and the origin and destiny of the human soul, emphasizing the unconditional parental Love of God and God's plan to redeem, restore, and transform all people through Christ. This spiritual belief system has existed in various forms at various times during the past 2000 years.

That doesn't sound like what you just described.

How so?

If you're already saved then there's no reason to believe or need to try? Or are you required to accept this to reap the benefit/s?

(August 6, 2010 at 6:24 pm)fr0d0 Wrote: If you're already saved then there's no reason to believe or need to try? Or are you required to accept this to reap the benefit/s?

No acceptance needed.

(August 6, 2010 at 6:24 pm)fr0d0 Wrote: If you're already saved then there's no reason to believe or need to try? Or are you required to accept this to reap the benefit/s?

Does this trouble you Fr0d0? The idea of no-one writhing in agony for all eternity while you look down saying "told you so" :p

(August 6, 2010 at 6:32 pm)Darwinian Wrote:

(August 6, 2010 at 6:24 pm)fr0d0 Wrote: If you're already saved then there's no reason to believe or need to try? Or are you required to accept this to reap the benefit/s?

Does this trouble you Fr0d0? The idea of no-one writhing in agony for all eternity while you look down saying "told you so" :p

Alot of Christians don't like the idea of receiving equal treatment... it makes their good deeds feel... well...

Pointless.