(January 19, 2015 at 8:56 pm)snowtracks Wrote: all these life experiments involve an outside mindful agency.

You mean outside like, in the same room but not in the experimental chamber?
How far away does the experimenter have to be to satisfy your demand that he not be involved?

Setting up some situation that plausibly might have been found on the early earth doesn't invalidate the demonstration that abiogenesis could have happened that way.
It isn't overcoming a 10^-50 barrier. It is just setting up the experiment so that you can have results in less than a lifetime instead of a billion years.

I do differ with the article's calling DNA life's software. Firmware maybe.

(January 19, 2015 at 8:53 pm)IATIA Wrote: Here is an interesting article.



I would like to find some updates on this. Self-replicating RNA that mutates.

Thanks i was looking for that link

---

(January 19, 2015 at 8:56 pm)snowtracks Wrote: all these life experiments involve an outside mindful agency.

Your point being?????? You hold the default position in believing in a god yet prove or hold no evidence for a god or any gods to exist. I mean there is more evidence to prove life came from non life such as abiogenesis. So do you know what that means no god required for anything.

(January 19, 2015 at 9:29 pm)JuliaL Wrote:

(January 19, 2015 at 8:56 pm)snowtracks Wrote: all these life experiments involve an outside mindful agency.

You mean outside like, in the same room but not in the experimental chamber?
How far away does the experimenter have to be to satisfy your demand that he not be involved?

Setting up some situation that plausibly might have been found on the early earth doesn't invalidate the demonstration that abiogenesis could have happened that way.
It isn't overcoming a 10^-50 barrier. It is just setting up the experiment so that you can have results in less than a lifetime instead of a billion years.

I do differ with the article's calling DNA life's software. Firmware maybe.

DNA didn't exist 4.5 billion years ago. We don’t know how or by what means the intelligent agent responsible for the information in living systems transmitted that information to an material entity such as a strand of DNA even though there were clues left behind that a mindful agency played a causal role in the origin of living forms.
When the figures of Easter Island were discovered, by what means were they carved (chisel, laser?) or erected was not completely understood, but nevertheless, it can be inferred an ‘intelligence’ made them.
The biblical God best fits the intelligent designer. One reason among many is - He is transcendent to the cosmic timeline which functions as a series of cause and effects; being outside of that, God doesn’t require a beginning or cause. Any other mindful agency would require a cause (Richard Dawkins is asking 'who or what designed the designer'?). The answer - none required.

(January 20, 2015 at 12:13 am)snowtracks Wrote:

(January 19, 2015 at 9:29 pm)JuliaL Wrote: You mean outside like, in the same room but not in the experimental chamber?
How far away does the experimenter have to be to satisfy your demand that he not be involved?

Setting up some situation that plausibly might have been found on the early earth doesn't invalidate the demonstration that abiogenesis could have happened that way.
It isn't overcoming a 10^-50 barrier. It is just setting up the experiment so that you can have results in less than a lifetime instead of a billion years.

I do differ with the article's calling DNA life's software. Firmware maybe.

DNA didn't exist 4.5 billion years ago. We don’t know how or by what means the intelligent agent responsible for the information in living systems transmitted that information to an material entity such as a strand of DNA even though there were clues left behind that a mindful agency played a causal role in the origin of living forms.
When the figures of Easter Island were discovered, by what means were they carved (chisel, laser?) or erected was not completely understood, but nevertheless, it can be inferred an ‘intelligence’ made them.
The biblical God best fits the intelligent designer. One reason among many is - He is transcendent to the cosmic timeline which functions as a series of cause and effects; being outside of that, God doesn’t require a beginning or cause. Any other mindful agency would require a cause (Richard Dawkins is asking 'who or what designed the designer'?). The answer - none required.

4.6 billion years ago The origin of the Earth
3.8 billion years ago First life arises
2.1 billion years ago Eukaryotes evolved
1.1 billion years ago First sexually reproducing organisms
570 million years ago First arthropods evolve
530 million years ago The first fish
475 million years ago First land plants
385 million years ago First forests
370 million years ago The first amphibians
320 million years ago The earliest reptiles
225 million years ago The dinosaurs evolve
200 million years ago The mammals evolve
150 million years ago First birds
130 million years ago Flowering plants evolve
100 million years ago The first bees evolve
65 million years ago Dinosaurs and ammonites become extinct
14 million years ago The first great apes appear
2.5 million years ago Genus Homo evolves
200 thousand years ago Our species, Homo sapiens evolves
10 thousand years ago End of the last Ice Age

http://www.space.com/12569-meteorites-dn...overy.html

http://www.space.com/24720-space-dust-li...locks.html

so yeah... still your point being...????

(January 20, 2015 at 12:13 am)snowtracks Wrote: We don’t know how or by what means the intelligent agent responsible for the information in living systems transmitted that information to an material entity such as a strand of DNA even though there were clues left behind that a mindful agency played a causal role in the origin of living forms.

Oh really? What sort of evidence are we talking about here?

(January 20, 2015 at 12:13 am)snowtracks Wrote: When the figures of Easter Island were discovered, by what means were they carved (chisel, laser?) or erected was not completely understood, but nevertheless, it can be inferred an ‘intelligence’ made them.

Which is irrelevant to the formation of biomolecules; they have been demonstrated to form under natural circumstances while statues of giant heads have not.

(January 20, 2015 at 12:13 am)snowtracks Wrote: The biblical God best fits the intelligent designer. One reason among many is - He is transcendent to the cosmic timeline which functions as a series of cause and effects; being outside of that, God doesn’t require a beginning or cause.

Being outside of cause and effect doesn't just mean being outside of cause; it means being outside of effect as well. Apparently you didn't think this all the way through.

(January 20, 2015 at 12:13 am)snowtracks Wrote: DNA didn't exist 4.5 billion years ago.

hock:

Says who?

You just keep on making up shit with no source, evidence or proof.

The biblical God is a blithering idiot. He did about the worst job anyone could do with the resources. And that's according to his own propaganda.

(January 20, 2015 at 1:31 am)IATIA Wrote:

(January 20, 2015 at 12:13 am)snowtracks Wrote: DNA didn't exist 4.5 billion years ago.

hock:

Says who?

You just keep on making up shit with no source, evidence or proof.

You can't source this amount of stupidity. I mean he would have to source and i find it funny for him to say god did things and made things happen and try to tie in science when science can't prove there is a god.

(January 20, 2015 at 1:31 am)IATIA Wrote:

(January 20, 2015 at 12:13 am)snowtracks Wrote: DNA didn't exist 4.5 billion years ago.

hock:

Says who?

You just keep on making up shit with no source, evidence or proof.

No, Snowy got that one right.

(January 20, 2015 at 12:09 pm)Chas Wrote:

snowtracks Wrote:DNA didn't exist 4.5 billion years ago.

No, Snowy got that one right.

Only if you don't consider panspermia.

But using the 4.5 billion year number leads me to believe that snowtracks is (again) being particularly obtuse or knowingly disinguous (lying). The oldest rocks on earth are pretty close to 4.5B old, but nobody thinks that DNA could have formed or survived on earth that long ago. As pointed out above, planetary scale impacts were occurring making the proto-earth God-Awful hot. But the evidence I've seen has DNA being formed circa 3.8B ago. That gives earth a 700,000,000 year cooling off period. That's a really long time for snowtracks to ignore. It takes that special skill of the faithful to remain knowledgeably ignorant.