(January 30, 2015 at 12:14 pm)SteveII Wrote: Your insist in a parallel when there is not.

Since you are going to be obtuse to the absolute bitter end, arguing false semantics in an attempt to divert attention away from your utter ignorance, how about I present for you a parallel in which prior to man's conception of the christian jesus through imagination there were a multitude of other cultural deities quite akin to your jesus fellow. There are genesis accounts for each of these cultures whereby the god figurehead created the world, each of these gods sent to earth his son in human form born of a virgin, they taught the word of god and performed miracles, they were each crucified by the people, and they each rose from the dead.

10 christ-like figures who predate jesus

Whatever claims you will make to dismiss that these deities, and the religions they represented, are not real can be turned around to likewise dismiss your claims that only your religion has a monopoly on the truth.

(January 30, 2015 at 12:23 pm)SteveII Wrote: You realize that it is not allowed in court because it cannot be cross examined. The fact that there are exceptions proves the point. Hearsay evidence is indeed evidence.

It is only admissable evidence when it falls under one of those exceptions. Which of those exceptions do you think applies to the hearsay you're saying qualifies as evidence?

(January 30, 2015 at 12:20 pm)SteveII Wrote: The problem with that statement is that can be applied to eyewitness testimony too. So by your reasoning, eyewitness testimony would not be evidence.

Well, eyewitness testimony is generally considered to be the weakest form of admissible evidence. After all, you could easily be mistaken or simply lie about it. Physical evidence is much more reliable.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eyewitness_...eliability

(January 30, 2015 at 12:20 pm)SteveII Wrote: The problem with that statement is that can be applied to eyewitness testimony too. So by your reasoning, eyewitness testimony would not be evidence.

So what you are proving here is that you are incapable of thinking critically about literally anything. If it makes sense to you at first glance, you're going to roll with it.

If you were to present evidence of an eyewitness, that is still hearsay. The reason an ACTUAL eyewitness testimony is not hearsay is that the eyewitness is available for cross-examination. We have the person there to tease out all the contradictions and inaccuracies in their statement. Their claims can be tested and researched and fleshed out for accuracy.

Incidentally, the reliability of eyewitness testimony is something of interest to psychiatry of late.

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(January 30, 2015 at 12:23 pm)SteveII Wrote: You realize that it is not allowed in court because it cannot be cross examined. The fact that there are exceptions proves the point. Hearsay evidence is indeed evidence.

Are you 14 years old? Why do you insist on being petulant? You realize that you are doing absolutely nothing to advance your position with this. You are merely trying to win a petty word game. We are not claiming that hearsay is not something that could be true. We are claiming that it does nothing to prove the validity of the claim.

It doesn't count as evidence because it is notoriously unreliable and untestable. It doesn't prove anything. It, again, is the claim which needs to be tested.

@Esquilax

A trial for a murder is certainly serious enough to warrant "beyond a reasonable doubt" level of evidence. A liability trial for slipping on the ice warrants a "preponderance of the evidence" level. Judging whether it is likely that a historical event is "preponderance of the evidence".

To say that the evidence of the early adopters belief can be applied to any religion is true. You would have to then go through each religion and see the differences--asking questions about the actual event believed to have happened, context, numbers, results, does it contradict reality, and can it be weaved into a coherent worldview.

(January 30, 2015 at 12:45 pm)SteveII Wrote: To say that the evidence of the early adopters belief can be applied to any religion is true. You would have to then go through each religion and see the differences--asking questions about the actual event believed to have happened, context, numbers, results, does it contradict reality, and can it be weaved into a coherent worldview.

The gospels contradict reality numerous times. You call them "miracles."

Steve's argument, condensed:

(January 30, 2015 at 12:45 pm)SteveII Wrote: @Esquilax

A trial for a murder is certainly serious enough to warrant "beyond a reasonable doubt" level of evidence. A liability trial for slipping on the ice warrants a "preponderance of the evidence" level. Judging whether it is likely that a historical event is "preponderance of the evidence".

So, a trial for murder is serious enough to use realistic standards of evidence, but for some reason identifying the architect of all that was and will ever be, upon which our eternity is supposed to rest, somehow isn't more serious? Why? Because it's convenient for your position?

Besides, you haven't gotten anywhere near a preponderance of the evidence, anyway. A bunch of philosophical arguments don't get you to a historical event, neither does the repeated assertion you make that the bible must be true because you believe the bible. I see you haven't addressed the very real problems of circular reasoning you're engaged in, which is troubling because that was actually the biggest issue with your entire argument. You just keep overstressing your case, calling it a preponderance of evidence, as though merely repeating that what you have is compelling will make it so.

But what I find particularly interesting is that what you've essentially said is that, if we were going to be serious and examine the evidence with incredible care and deliberation, your evidence would not be convincing. For some reason you then ask us to relax our standards and not address the evidence from a place of seriousness and consideration, as though somehow that makes the evidence better, rather than just our examination of it worse? It's a very telling response, really.

Quote:To say that the evidence of the early adopters belief can be applied to any religion is true. You would have to then go through each religion and see the differences--asking questions about the actual event believed to have happened, context, numbers, results, does it contradict reality, and can it be weaved into a coherent worldview.

Does it bother you that so many times, you'll say a thing, and then someone else will point out that what you say goes equally for every other religion, and then you respond with "yeah, but then you gotta go and investigate each of those religious claims for accuracy," which just means that what you said, in isolation, is not an argument at all, because you've just had to add in the corollary that your argument only properly applies to true religions, when the truth of the religion is what you're trying to demonstrate with the argument in the first place? Because if I had to add a little "but only if it's true," footnote to the majority of my arguments, in a conversation about whether what we're talking about is true or not, that'd bother me a whole lot.

Also, "does it contradict reality"? You mean... the way a resurrection does?

Oh, right: if the resurrection happened, it doesn't contradict reality. So we're back to circular reasoning and presuppositions, then.

Regarding hearsay evidence...

1. It is not a synonym for proof or a claim
2. It is evidence
3. If hearsay evidence exists of an event, there is evidence of that event.

If 10 people told me your house was burning down and I relayed that fact to you, you would rightly conclude there is evidence that your house is burning down. Although I did not prove anything, you would not be irrational to act on my statement and go home.

You can argue what might be better evidence, but you cannot claim there is no evidence for the life, death and resurrection of Jesus.

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(January 30, 2015 at 12:46 pm)Tonus Wrote:

(January 30, 2015 at 12:45 pm)SteveII Wrote: To say that the evidence of the early adopters belief can be applied to any religion is true. You would have to then go through each religion and see the differences--asking questions about the actual event believed to have happened, context, numbers, results, does it contradict reality, and can it be weaved into a coherent worldview.

The gospels contradict reality numerous times. You call them "miracles."

How does a miracle contradict reality??? If a miracle occurs and there is proof and that proof is observed, do you think reality would somehow be in jeopardy? What you meant is that it would contradict naturalism.

(January 30, 2015 at 1:04 pm)SteveII Wrote: Regarding hearsay evidence...

1. It is not a synonym for proof or a claim
2. It is evidence
3. If hearsay evidence exists of an event, there is evidence of that event.

If 10 people told me your house was burning down and I relayed that fact to you, you would rightly conclude there is evidence that your house is burning down. Although I did not prove anything, you would not be irrational to act on my statement and go home.

You can argue what might be better evidence, but you cannot claim there is no evidence for the life, death and resurrection of Jesus.

Okay, fine, it's evidence. It's evidence that doesn't hold up under scrutiny, and is literally worthless.

Happy now?

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(January 30, 2015 at 1:04 pm)SteveII Wrote:

(January 30, 2015 at 12:46 pm)Tonus Wrote: The gospels contradict reality numerous times. You call them "miracles."

How does a miracle contradict reality??? If a miracle occurs and there is proof and that proof is observed, do you think reality would somehow be in jeopardy? What you meant is that it would contradict naturalism.

Did you just conflate hearsay and proof?