(January 1, 2009 at 7:11 pm)CoxRox Wrote: Evf, I think you're making this all rather complicated when it isn't. I'm sure I've conveyed in other threads that I'm well aware that hoping for something or believing enough and keeping my eyes shut and fingers crossed, is not going to make it true. I'm not stupid. I'm not hoping for hoping's sake. I've assessed the 'evidence' or the inferences of design. I 'see' design and purpose in the universe. I 'see' truth in what Jesus speaks of. Da Dah!! I've got myself a kind of 'belief', but due to my skeptical nature and my doubts I know I may be barking up the wrong tree, so I'm not going to go and join a convent just yet. Sorry if I sound a bit peeved, but I don't really think me 'hoping' for 'more' is a big deal, or betrays a madness. That's it.

I was just trying to explain that: If you believe in God then you don't need to hope do you? And if you don't believe in God and hoping doesn't make it true - why do you hope?

Where does hope fit into the equation on an existence question?
So: Why do you hope? Is what I'm wondering.
evf

(January 1, 2009 at 10:08 pm)EvidenceVsFaith Wrote: I was just trying to explain that: If you believe in God then you don't need to hope do you? And if you don't believe in God and hoping doesn't make it true - why do you hope?

Where does hope fit into the equation on an existence question?
So: Why do you hope? Is what I'm wondering.
evf

Fair enough. Hope is a by-product of 'belief' mixed with doubt maybe. I'm not sure about there being a God. I don't like the fact that I'm not sure. I'm sitting on the fence, not by choice. I can't help this 'hoping'. Maybe it's an emotional byproduct of something. I think it is understandable though, but it doesn't have any importance in relation to 'truth' and I'll agree after considering this, that it has no place in the existence question but is a personal 'ingredient' that I don't mind admitting to.

Yeah. No place in the existence question so its just like you hoping you're not wrong?

I guess the thing is - I want whatever's true to be true on this matter. If there is no God then I don't want to believe there is. If there IS a God then I do want to believe there is. I'm only really interested in the existence question.

I am almost certain God doesn't exist but I don't hope I'm right or wrong. I don't wish there is a God and I don't hope that I'm right and that there isn't.


I just think that I'm almost certainly right because I think God almost certainly doesn't exist. I don't have to 'KNOW'. I don't hope either way. Its just an existence question for me.

I wonder what triggers the hoping for you? If it has no place in the existence question I wonder why you hope when it doesn't change anything. I've hoped things in the past but that's because I thought it would change the matter. I don't really need to hope now. I fear things if I'm afraid but I don't hope things if I already have a belief stance.

If I believe something is so then I don't need to hope it is or isn't. If I believe something isn't so then I also don't need to hope it is or isn't.

It seems to me that hope is basically doubt disguised as something more positive. For examplel; if you don't doubt something is going to happen you don't have to 'hope' its going to - or not going to - happen. Because if you don't doubt it you either believe it or you don't. Why would you hope?

So I think its just doubt. So its a thing that sways back and forth really quickly. Although overall you do believe in God. So the thing is when you strongly do believe in God you don't need to hope do you?

When and if you sometimes don't have faith in God - as you have earlier said, at times you've been an "'atheist'" - why would you hope there is one? If you don't believe in one you wouldn't need to hope because there's no God? Would you?

About hope: I don't hope that terrible things DON'T happen in the world no matter how terrible. Because I know they do! I want them to get better. The thing is of course I do hope they DO get better in future. But I never really think or feel it because I'm more concerned about what really IS happening right now. And I feel much more empathy for what really is going on now. Because hoping won't change anything. But its very important for me to recognize all the horror that goes on. And of course something must be done about all the horrible things that go on. But 'hoping' won't change anything. I'm more concerned about what's going on and that it should stop. Hope doesn't really fit into the equation for me. I just feel for what's going on and want it to get better. I don't hope because I have no idea if it will or won't so there's nothing to doubt. And if I did think it was or wasn't going to get better then I'd have a belief so I wouldn't need to doubt then either.

So I feel deeply for the world at present and something must be done about some of the things that go on. But hope is a pointless emotion with no real life for me. And it doesn't change anything. I'm more concerned about the present than 'hoping' about the future when 'hoping' doesn't change anything.

So I understand that you don't mean to hope. And everyone hope's from time to time. And I don't think it fits into the existence question as you agree.

I still just wonder why you hope? I think you must believe something that triggers the 'hope' perhaps? You cannot feel something emotionally without believing it first can you? If you believe life is good then it feels good. If you believe life is bad then it feels bad. What you believe is bad you feel is bad - emotionally - right?

What do you think? Sorry for going on and on lol
evf

CR's reply to me has cleared some murky waters in her thinking. I see how you are fitting things together now to reach your conclusion.

However even so, the words are plain and clear "there are some that stand here who shall not taste death until they see it coming. It is clear Jesus was being asked when this KoG would get here. All of them tasted death and no KoG.

Correct me if I am wrong, but it seems when this was first brought up about Jesus's statement in Luke being untrue the reaction from the believing crowd, and I think you, was Jesus was refering to the transfig. Now it seems that what you are saying is the transfig. served a different purpose and it really was refering to the resurrection?


Now in other news:

I can relate big-time to your hoping. I was a heavly indoctrinated young-un. Dragged to chuch 2x's a week. Sometimes more. Forced to go to Bible Summer Camp every year. I believed it all full heartedly.
When the doubt started within me I held out hope. Who here can say they don't wish it were true? Paradise for eternity! Reunited with lost loved ones! The best of everything, no war, no hate, no sickness. When you thought it as all true then you start doubting you start hoping and wishing it all to be true.

Have you had the dreams yet?

I of course understand wishing and hoping. I wish and hope things but its practically non-existent now. And I wish and hope an awful lot less than in the past because it does nothing AND brings my mood down.

It seems to me though that when CR says she hopes God exists that that is quite a big thing? I mean its not like wishing before you blow the candles out on a birthday cake now is it?

I just wonder why anyone would need to hope God exists if they believe he does. And if they don't believe then why do they hope if it won't change anything? And if they don't believe why do they say they are believers?

I do not doubt at all that people wish and hope. And of course i can relate to it - although I do it an awful lot less now than before and I am much happier now - I just still wonder why people do it when it has no effect. What is the purpose?

I of course - don't doubt that people hope or wish. I just wonder why. And I particularly wonder why it would be a big thing. I wonder what makes people do it unless obviously they're really desperate or something. I wonder.

Of course the example of wishing for something before you blow a candle out on a birthday cake - thats a different thing. That does no harm so long as its not all the damn time - constantly.

I wonder why hoping and wishing would and should be a driving force when it has no effect? What causes hope? And why don't I have it?

I don't think I really "hope" anymore: simply because I know there's no point and it won't change anything and it makes me feel worse.

If that's not why I no longer help I wonder what else it could possibly be if its not that I'm both more rational and emotionally healthier now?

I still wonder what is the purpose of hoping? And if there's no purpose why do people hope? I think those who do deep down must perhaps feel there is SOME purpose to it?

Just as you don't really feel something emotionally unless you first believe it - E.G you don't feel sad about something unless you believe something sad is happening... - why would you feel hope unless you believed there was a purpose to it?

I wonder.
evf

I think it's very odd that you think you don't hope anymore. I think it's an emotion which can be explained in evolutionary terms, much as anything related to a biological entity can be. If, for example, we were define hope as the (conscious or unconscious) wish for an event to transpire, then I have no doubt this could be very easily explained. For example. I was just eating steak, and it was delicious. My dog was sitting near me, eyeing my steak, and (in terms of my definition) "hoping" to get some. Taking this model then, perhaps in social mammals, "hope" has been rewarded (and the behavior reinforced) in one way when related organisms share food? I know this is a silly example, but it's 5:30 in the morning and hopefully (ha!) you get my drift.

On a more philosophical level, I think that hope is actually just a term for caring about the future. If you do not have any hope (not in the dramatic, "All hope is lost," sense) then what are you doing, living? Eating and sleeping and not looking towards the future... Seems impossible to me. I hope all the time, even little things, like I hope it isn't any trouble for me to register for my classes, etc. But is there a purpose to hope? Is there a purpose to anything at all?! Not from my point of view. Hope is just a motivator.

Quote: Just as you don't really feel something emotionally unless you first believe it - E.G you don't feel sad about something unless you believe something sad is happening... - why would you feel hope unless you believed there was a purpose to it?

I think you're comparing two unlike things here. First, what is the purpose to feeling sad? There is, again, none at all. But more importantly, sadness in the manifestation you're talking about is a reactionary emotion, whereas hope is not necessarily. It is a very interesting point, though- would anyone do anything at all if they were not motivated by hope? If a hunter didn't have any hope that he would make a kill and be able to eat, would he bother?

(January 2, 2009 at 4:36 pm)Dotard Wrote: CR's reply to me has cleared some murky waters in her thinking. That's not nice[b] I see how you are fitting things together now to reach your conclusion.

However even so, the words are plain and clear "there are some that stand here who shall not taste death until they see it coming. It is clear Jesus was being asked when this KoG would get here. All of them tasted death and no KoG.

[b]I've been thinking about the 'not taste death' thing, and it occurred to me that quite a few of the disciples died early deaths e.g Peter was crucified, so Jesus was reassuring them that they would experience the kingdom (not the full 'kingdom') before they died. I have been reading different articles about the transfiguration and I am clear in my mind that this is what Jesus was alluding to, either that or he was mistaken about the whole thing.

Correct me if I am wrong, but it seems when this was first brought up about Jesus's statement in Luke being untrue the reaction from the believing crowd, and I think you, was Jesus was refering to the transfig. Now it seems that what you are saying is the transfig. served a different purpose and it really was refering to the resurrection?

The transfiguration seems to serve many purposes, 1) Jesus reveals the glory and power that He gave up to become a man, the power that he will have when he is King in his kingdom, 2) Dead dudes are with him, thus showing the resurrection is a reality 3) God speaks from heaven and confirms that Jesus 'is' His Son . I've not put them in order of importance. There may be more purposes that I've missed. The Kingdom incorporates all these 'purposes'.


Now in other news:

I can relate big-time to your hoping. I was a heavly indoctrinated young-un. Dragged to chuch 2x's a week. Sometimes more. Forced to go to Bible Summer Camp every year. I believed it all full heartedly.
When the doubt started within me I held out hope. Who here can say they don't wish it were true? Paradise for eternity! Reunited with lost loved ones! The best of everything, no war, no hate, no sickness. When you thought it as all true then you start doubting you start hoping and wishing it all to be true.

Have you had the dreams yet?

No, I've not had the dreams. What are they pray tell?

---

Evf said: 'It seems to me though that when CR says she hopes God exists that that is quite a big thing? I mean its not like wishing before you blow the candles out on a birthday cake now is it?

I just wonder why anyone would need to hope God exists if they believe he does. And if they don't believe then why do they hope if it won't change anything? And if they don't believe why do they say they are believers?''

And Luke made some interesting points about hope. Hope is an integral part of the human experience I would assert. I assume it can only 'be born' in someone as a result of something else, or lack of something, so it is a reactionary thing. You hope for something you haven't got and want, in my case I haven't got direct proof that God exists. The indirect proof I think I've got, generates the desire to want to know for sure. What I think I know about God makes me hope He really does exist. Dotard understands where I'm coming from.

Personally I am glad that god is fiction.
He really is the most unpleasant character in all literature.
Who else claims to have personaly killed all but a boatful of all the creatures on the planet(the flood).
Who delighted in torturing a devoted follower (Job).
And who is credited with the authorship of a truly awful book (the bible).
The pages of which drip with hate and intolerance.
It also does not work well when read as a novel.

(January 12, 2009 at 4:23 pm)downbeatplumb Wrote: Personally I am glad that god is fiction.
He really is the most unpleasant character in all literature.
Who else claims to have personaly killed all but a boatful of all the creatures on the planet(the flood).
Who delighted in torturing a devoted follower (Job).
And who is credited with the authorship of a truly awful book (the bible).
The pages of which drip with hate and intolerance.
It also does not work well when read as a novel.

Ah but without Gawd & the Wholly Babble we wouldn't have "Buffy The Vampire Slayer" and where would be then (sob, sob)?

Kyu

I think the Grinch is a more pleasant character then God