(February 13, 2015 at 5:14 pm)Chad32 Wrote: We Humans at least have the excuse that we know we're all knowing, powerful, and present. With great power comes great responsibility, and that makes your god responsible for pretty much everything we can't control.

Yes, your religion was influenced by the cultures around it. No doubt about it.

I meant not all knowing.

(February 13, 2015 at 9:54 pm)Chad32 Wrote:

(February 13, 2015 at 5:14 pm)Chad32 Wrote: We Humans at least have the excuse that we know we're all knowing, powerful, and present. With great power comes great responsibility, and that makes your god responsible for pretty much everything we can't control.

Yes, your religion was influenced by the cultures around it. No doubt about it.

I meant not all knowing.

I'm all knowing and i knew you were going to say that.

So God has an eternity of peace and happiness planned for us. But instead of putting us directly into it, to be with him as he wishes, he puts us into a shitty life surrounded with disease, despair and suffering for no better reason than to see if we will worship him for doing so?

If everything God does is automatically "good" then you have a dictatorship. And "good" has nothing to do with human wellbeing, if it is used to describe literally anything God feels like doing. Such as creating diseases, famine, animal cruelty, rape, murder etc. He could have avoided all those things! They are all clearly surplus to requirements as he chooses not to have those things in heaven.

You are bowing down to a fascist dictator. Or in reality, to the men who claim to represent this dictator. They have beaten you down so bad that you just accept whatever shit they tell you without checking whether it makes sense, or is actually moral.

(February 13, 2015 at 8:06 pm)Lek Wrote:

(February 13, 2015 at 7:32 pm)Parkers Tan Wrote: Why do you absolve your god of his guilt in those evils? How can an omnipotent being be compelled to do anything?

God has no guilt in those matters. That's how he chose to create the world.

So he's not responsible for his own choices?!

How does that work?

Quote: Now you tell me how an eternity of peace and happiness offered to everyone who ever lived is not a trait of a loving God?

... or so the story goes. By the way, that alleged grace is purchased in part by holding him blameless for the torments he inflicts. What a deal, eh?

You clearly haven't given much thought to morality, something I gathered from that thread about the girl with cancer. You should think more about what you're really saying here.

(February 14, 2015 at 12:24 am)Parkers Tan Wrote: So he's not responsible for his own choices?!

How does that work?

Apologists because they know anyone with half a brain or even a active brain cell for though processing can see that god is evil and fucked up they use cleaver tactics to make god look good. Tricky bastards those apologists .

(February 14, 2015 at 12:24 am)Parkers Tan Wrote: ... or so the story goes. By the way, that alleged grace is purchased in part by holding him blameless for the torments he inflicts. What a deal, eh?

Again apologists tricky bastards

(February 13, 2015 at 8:53 pm)Lek Wrote: 3. That God's plan unfolded over time.

Why does your god's plan involve punishing the very creations who are carrying out his plan?

Are you Calvinist?

Could God not have achieved whatever bizarre end he wanted without giving AIDS to babies?

What's his problem anyway? He's perfect, he knows everything, he can do anything, so he makes a stupid planet with some dumb humans on it and sits around judging them for masturbating? Just think what cool stuff you could do instead.

(February 14, 2015 at 4:02 am)robvalue Wrote: Could God not have achieved whatever bizarre end he wanted without giving AIDS to babies?

What's his problem anyway? He's perfect, he knows everything, he can do anything, so he makes a stupid planet with some dumb humans on it and sits around judging them for masturbating? Just think what cool stuff you could do instead.

Well, assuming god is an omnipotent and omniscient being, there wouldn't be a way for us to comprehend his actions with reason. Finite minds wouldn't be able to comprehend infinity - they would acknowledge its existence as a concept, but could never fully grasp it. Some of the things he does may appear immoral to humans, because unlike god we don't know the full balance of good and evil that stems from every decision.

The option that I incline to, however, would be that god isn't an entity, like YHWH or Allah which are obviously human constructs, but everything. Synonymous with the universe, the force that pushed everything into existence and further evolved it. All depictions and all the attempts to humanise the concept of god, make it more relatable - religions are faulty and flawed, designed to control people.

This is the point where I'd take my meds, but I don't have any. Derp.

It's the omnipotence part which really is the stupidest claim about "God". Of course, there is no grounds to think an omnipotent being is even possible, and even if it were, no reason to think a creator also just happens to be able to do everything. It's childish fantasy.

Now, if religious people weren't making that claim, things get somewhat more defensible. Then it really could be the case that babies getting AIDS is a means to some end we cannot possibly understand, and there is no other way to do it given his power. Still a very paper thin argument, but at least it has some traction. Add omnipotence and everything is ludicrous. Including the idea that there's anything he actually needs to get done that he wouldn't just do instantly. The idea of having a long winded, incredibly slow acting plan is ridiculous. The way theists try and equate him with a parent is mind buggering.

(February 14, 2015 at 6:09 am)robvalue Wrote: It's the omnipotence part which really is the stupidest claim about "God". Of course, there is no grounds to think an omnipotent being is even possible, and even if it were, no reason to think a creator also just happens to be able to do everything. It's childish fantasy.

It's stupid if you take god as an entity, an actual person, which is a very human and inherently flawed way of thinking. Personally I think attaching these attributes to god is a way of creating authority for people to follow - there's a god who knows everything, is everywhere and can do everything, so we better get on his good side.

It could also be that these adjectives are a means of describing god's infinity and were mistaken as literal.

(February 14, 2015 at 6:09 am)robvalue Wrote: Now, if religious people weren't making that claim, things get somewhat more defensible. Then it really could be the case that babies getting AIDS is a means to some end we cannot possibly understand, and there is no other way to do it given his power. Still a very paper thin argument, but at least it has some traction. Add omnipotence and everything is ludicrous. Including the idea that there's anything he actually needs to get done that he wouldn't just do instantly. The idea of having a long winded, incredibly slow acting plan is ridiculous. The way theists try and equate him with a parent is mind buggering.

There is a theory that our minds created time to prevent everything from happening at once, and since god doesn't exist in the context of time or space, his plan isn't slow at all. The parent thing is also not understood literally, it's sort of an analogy - god is what we come from, what we are a result of.

You could argue that if god is omnipotent then he could just make evrything right in a second, but that falls under not understanding his motives - again. It's measuring infinity with finite definitions like morality.