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February 14, 2015 at 9:38 pm (This post was last modified: February 14, 2015 at 9:40 pm by Lek.)
(February 14, 2015 at 3:17 pm)Esquilax Wrote: So, you don't question it? Because, to be clear, it's literally what you're doing, when you accept the good christianity does as representative, but dismiss the bad out of hand, based on no argument that couldn't also be applied to the good.
You're taking seriously what you want to believe, but asserting that what you don't want to believe doesn't count. I don't care if you've changed your mind on every other issue you've ever discussed here, that doesn't make this particular argument any more honest.
I think you don't get it. Christianity does nothing bad. People do bad. If people follow christianity and do what it teaches they will do good. If people do bad things and try to use christianity to justify themselves, that's not christianity. You guys are saying christianity is a bad thing when it's not. You tell me christianity does this and that, and I think - "christianity doesn't do that!"
(February 14, 2015 at 5:55 pm)Bad Wolf Wrote: Really? Where are these facts coming from? Because I do good things and give to society without the 'carrot' of reward or the 'stick' of punishment.
Good for you. But that's not true of everyone. There are people who do just as I said, and their motivation for changing is becoming a christian.
(February 14, 2015 at 9:38 pm)Lek Wrote: I think you don't get it. Christianity does nothing bad. People do bad. If people follow christianity and do what it teaches they will do good.
Not true at all. If christians actually obeyed all of the bible instead of ignoring the parts they don't like, they would do very bad things.
(February 14, 2015 at 9:38 pm)Lek Wrote: If people do bad things and try to use christianity to justify themselves, that's not christianity.
And i'm sure those people don't think you're a true christian either. So who is right?
(February 14, 2015 at 9:38 pm)Lek Wrote: Good for you. But that's not true of everyone. There are people who do just as I said, and their motivation for changing is becoming a christian.
Then they aren't good people.
'The more I learn about people the more I like my dog'- Mark Twain
'You can have all the faith you want in spirits, and the afterlife, and heaven and hell, but when it comes to this world, don't be an idiot. Cause you can tell me you put your faith in God to put you through the day, but when it comes time to cross the road, I know you look both ways.' - Dr House
“Young earth creationism is essentially the position that all of modern science, 90% of living scientists and 98% of living biologists, all major university biology departments, every major science journal, the American Academy of Sciences, and every major science organization in the world, are all wrong regarding the origins and development of life….but one particular tribe of uneducated, bronze aged, goat herders got it exactly right.” - Chuck Easttom
"If my good friend Doctor Gasparri speaks badly of my mother, he can expect to get punched.....You cannot provoke. You cannot insult the faith of others. You cannot make fun of the faith of others. There is a limit." - Pope Francis on freedom of speech
Once again coming back to cherry picking the right bible verses to obey or ignore, why do so very, very, very many christers think they know better than god/jesus/spook ??????
Where do they get that idea ? Why aren't those spouting off with that heresy dragged bodily out of their churches by those actually faithful and concerned with their own salvation to the funeral pyre in the parking lot ??
Your typical jesus franchise outlet would only have to incinerate a couple blasphemers a year to keep the rest of the sheep towing the line. Yet, they can't be bothered to expend the effort.
The granting of a pardon is an imputation of guilt, and the acceptance a confession of it.
February 15, 2015 at 12:39 pm (This post was last modified: February 15, 2015 at 1:03 pm by Jenny A.)
(February 14, 2015 at 9:38 pm)Lek Wrote:
(February 14, 2015 at 3:17 pm)Esquilax Wrote:
So, you don't question it? Because, to be clear, it's literally what you're doing, when you accept the good christianity does as representative, but dismiss the bad out of hand, based on no argument that couldn't also be applied to the good.
You're taking seriously what you want to believe, but asserting that what you don't want to believe doesn't count. I don't care if you've changed your mind on every other issue you've ever discussed here, that doesn't make this particular argument any more honest.
I think you don't get it. Christianity does nothing bad. People do bad. If people follow christianity and do what it teaches they will do good. If people do bad things and try to use christianity to justify themselves, that's not christianity. You guys are saying christianity is a bad thing when it's not. You tell me christianity does this and that, and I think - "christianity doesn't do that!"
What's done in the name of Christianity by those who consider themselves Christian is what Christianity does.
If people followed what the NT said, they would: behave as if the end of the world were tomorrow; and give away everything they owned; spurn their family; turn-the-other-cheek; and a number of other very difficult things. So far there have been very few takers on that and you aren't one of them. If you follow the OT it's eye-for-an-eye, and much animal sacrifice. Fortunately not many takers on that one either.
What do Christians actually do? Well generally speaking, just what everyone else does both for good and for bad except that from time to time committed Christians start wars, kill other people, enslave other people, torture other people, heavily tax other people, or make other people live in ghettos in the name of Christianity and often with rather more Biblical justification than many Christians currently use to deny gay marriage.
If there is a god, I want to believe that there is a god. If there is not a god, I want to believe that there is no god.
Really, what is it about nature that suggests a god? The red in tooth and claw part? Disease? The vast amount of empty space in the universe? Beauty. Complexity. What? Because none of them indicate a god to me.
Frankly, it is not nature exactly, but man's lack of control over nature that seems to have caused man to invent gods, as a way of influencing nature. Unlike Christianity, earlier religions were not so much about morality or creation as about how do we: win this battle; make it rain; save this man from dying; safely sail across this water; survive the winter; get a deer; have a child. The idea was quid pro quo, we do this for x god and he gives us y. As a method, worshiping the gods didn't work very well. Having tested that hypothesis and found it wanting, perhaps we could move on? ----- Oh yeah, we have moved on. And while we are still not really in control, we have a lot more control and predictive power than we used to. But that came of discarding the god hypothesis.
I didn't come as a result of discarding the God hypothesis. It came from studying nature and learning to apply the knowledge we found to make our lives easier.
What ancient people did with regard to god was to preform elaborate time consuming rituals, sacrifice animals, pour out wine and oil, and build temple and shrines. They wasted much man power on those activities. They also attributed much natural phenomenon to the gods, which is why they preformed the rituals etc.
If you stop at "god did it," you don't learn much. Secular thinking people advanced science. Religious people in Athens and later Christians harassed and or killed scientists because what they discovered conflicted with religion (Copernicus, Galileo, Darwin, etc.) The only exceptions I know of where religion led to discoveries are in the areas of better war machines, church architecture, and magic stunts.
Quote: I'm sure that as early people were praying to their gods, they were busy searching for food, constructing shelters, making clothes, etc. - just as theists do today.
Yes and it is their secular activities that produced results, not their religious ones.
* * *
But we're way off track from the original post now. This little side discussion began because you argued that there was evidence of god in the world. Arguing that religion doesn't do bad things, won't get you there. What positive thing does belief in god produce?
Hint: Up until Christianity and late Judaism, morality and the after life were not the concerns of Western religions--crop fruition, child birth, and war winning were. The morality promoted in the New Testament is not original, and generally speaking it did not originate in religion.
If there is a god, I want to believe that there is a god. If there is not a god, I want to believe that there is no god.
(February 14, 2015 at 9:38 pm)Lek Wrote: I think you don't get it. Christianity does nothing bad. People do bad.
I think you don't get it. Christianity does nothing good. People do good.
Two statements, both with equal evidentiary support behind them. You believe the one you said, because you have a pre-existing definition of christianity that includes only good things, and discounts all the bad. I don't happen to believe my statement, because I understand it to be an overly simplistic binary, like the kind religions like to use, that isn't a comprehensive account of the facts. But despite that, both statements have exactly the same amount of support; other than that it is convenient for your position, what evidence do you have that christianity does nothing bad, especially in light of all the bad things the christian bible explicitly commands?
Quote: If people follow christianity and do what it teaches they will do good.
Like all that slavery, genocide and chattel marriage stuff?
Look, I get it, you've defined christianity in your head only by the good things in it. But to get there, you're ignoring all the bad things in it, or interpreting that away, and I can do that too: if you're intent on finding ways to make the bad qualities of a thing not exist, you'll only be left with good qualities. That's practically a tautology, it's trivial, but your unwillingness to admit that the bad things exist, does not make them disappear. The No True Christian argument is not going to be convincing here.
Quote: If people do bad things and try to use christianity to justify themselves, that's not christianity. You guys are saying christianity is a bad thing when it's not. You tell me christianity does this and that, and I think - "christianity doesn't do that!"
See above. You aren't the arbiter of what is and isn't christianity, the bible is the closest representation of that, and I gotta tell ya, the bible doesn't agree with this idea you have that only the currently morally acceptable parts of it count.
"YOU take the hard look in the mirror. You are everything that is wrong with this world. The only thing important to you, is you." - ronedee
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February 15, 2015 at 11:03 pm (This post was last modified: February 15, 2015 at 11:29 pm by Lek.)
(February 15, 2015 at 1:05 pm)Esquilax Wrote: Like all that slavery, genocide and chattel marriage stuff?
Does the bible say that it's okay for me to have slaves, commit genocide, or have more than one wife?
Quote:Look, I get it, you've defined christianity in your head only by the good things in it. But to get there, you're ignoring all the bad things in it, or interpreting that away, and I can do that too: if you're intent on finding ways to make the bad qualities of a thing not exist, you'll only be left with good qualities. That's practically a tautology, it's trivial, but your unwillingness to admit that the bad things exist, does not make them disappear. The No True Christian argument is not going to be convincing here.
Christian was a name given to the very early followers of Christ after Jesus had departed the earth. They were first called by that name in Antioch by nonbelievers in Paul's time, and the name stuck. It simply refers to followers of Christ. That's what a christian is and that's how I define christianity. I don't follow the old testament law and I don't derive my morality from old testament figures.
(February 15, 2015 at 1:01 pm)Jenny A Wrote: Secular thinking people advanced science.
When you say "secular thinking" people advanced science are you speaking about all those great christian scientists throughout the history of the western world after the time of Christ?
Quote:But we're way off track from the original post now. This little side discussion began because you argued that there was evidence of god in the world. Arguing that religion doesn't do bad things, won't get you there. What positive thing does belief in god produce?
I gave you a bunch a few posts ago.
Quote:Hint: Up until Christianity and late Judaism, morality and the after life were not the concerns of Western religions--crop fruition, child birth, and war winning were. The morality promoted in the New Testament is not original, and generally speaking it did not originate in religion.
Do you believe "no fault" divorce is okay? Do you think it's okay to hate someone? Is sex outside of the married state a good thing? Is desiring your neighbor's spouse without actually having an actual affair okay? Do you love your neighbor the same amount as you love yourself? And so on and so forth. Much new testament morality was original.
