(March 2, 2015 at 1:44 pm)Delysid Wrote: Please answer your own question. Just so I can be clear on where you think feminism is needed here in the states. Please explain to me what issues can be addressed by a large scale feminist movement as opposed to some other strategy?

I thought it was obvious from my post. Absolute unequivocal gender equality for everyone.

Got a problem with that?

(March 2, 2015 at 1:44 pm)Delysid Wrote:

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(March 1, 2015 at 6:41 am)I_am_not_mafia Wrote: At what point do you decide that feminism isn't required any more?

When women are paid almost as much as men yet still hit a glass ceiling?

When women are allowed to do menial work but are paid a pittance and have no prospect of promotion?

When women are allowed to vote?

When women have basic rights as human beings?

Or when there is complete unequivocal gender equality for both sexes?

Someone today may pick an arbitrary point on the sliding scale of gender equality, but it's not likely to be the same point chosen by their forebears or their children.

It's true that different countries are at different stages along the same scale but the intended destination is the same. It's also worth noting that it's not a one-off journey. Any progress that has been made also needs to be maintained. Some countries do start sliding backwards again.

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Please answer your own question. Just so I can be clear on where you think feminism is needed here in the states. Please explain to me what issues can be addressed by a large scale feminist movement as opposed to some other strategy?

I don't understand this question. Civil rights movements aren't strategies. The movements uses strategies to put pressure on politicians and to change the general public's beliefs and attitudes. A strategy is marches to raise awareness for an issue or have protests or have pride parades.

Can someone tell me what progress needs to be made? Why is feminism even needed around, women have the right to vote and apply for jobs what more is needed?

(March 2, 2015 at 3:18 pm)FlyingSpaghettiMonster Wrote: women have the right to vote and apply for jobs what more is needed?

..ಠ_ಠ

(March 2, 2015 at 3:18 pm)FlyingSpaghettiMonster Wrote: Can someone tell me what progress needs to be made? Why is feminism even needed around, women have the right to vote and apply for jobs what more is needed?

Would you be contented having the right to apply for work even though it meant that you are less likely to be offered the job and even if you were successful, were going to be on a lesser wage for doing exactly the same work just because you are a man?

Would you still be contented knowing that you are also less likely to get promotion?

Would you still be contented knowing that your work was possibly going to be valued less because of common-place biases about what your gender was capable of despite whatever quality of work you produce?

http://www.hastac.org/blogs/superadmin/2...Dh.twitter

(March 2, 2015 at 3:18 pm)FlyingSpaghettiMonster Wrote: Can someone tell me what progress needs to be made? Why is feminism even needed around, women have the right to vote and apply for jobs what more is needed?

Having rights, specially legal rights is an invalid argument because outlawing something has never been effective in erasing the problem. Laws don't mean anything without authority, will and proper methods to enforce it.

Please tell me how you know so well how easy it is to be a woman. What are your comparative statistical sources to say feminism isn't needed?

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Quote:Please answer your own question. Just so I can be clear on where you think feminism is needed here in the states. Please explain to me what issues can be addressed by a large scale feminist movement as opposed to some other strategy?

What other strategy? Specialization brings fragmentation which is a disadvantage, but in contrast it allows for greater tackling of specific problems and issues.

I find it funny listening to Americans saying feminism isn't needed. America compared to Europe is, in some regards terrible to women's rights. Just look at bills passed by republicans to limit reproductive rights, or the wage gap that is much bigger - Specially because some states have modified versions of the employment-at-will labour methodology that disadvantages workers, specially some who belong to less desirable groups.

I'll just say some general problems that affect all countries in the world, including the west (there is no feminist utopia):
- Domestic violence and rape affects women disproportionally and victim-blaming is frequent. This becomes an avalanche because victims start self-blaming and end up not reporting crimes out of fear of not being believed. Rape and domestic violence are two crimes that go very unreported.
- I won't address the wage gap specifically, but gender stereotypes that label some jobs as feminine and others as masculine. Why do women take more time off, choose less well paid jobs and spend more time in household tasks + taking care of kids? Is it really biological and natural? Is it just a choice? Nah, there's no such thing as a free choice. We are all conditioned from birth, and our assigned gender helps to further our limitations. There's no reason for women to not choose well paid jobs because many of those have potential to pay a lot and earn social prestige. Why would women not want this? Additionally, more men in positions of power means women need to rely on men who know nothing about what it's like to be a woman to pass laws for abortion and other female issues that are important. For most jobs, even female dominated ones, you find men earning on average more. The wage gap doesn't mean that male CEO's make more than female secretaries, it means that on average a male CEO makes more than a female CEO, a male cop makes more than a female cop, a male neurologist makes more than a female neurologist, with all variables taking into account including equal working hours and prestige, etc.
- Gender roles and gender stereotypes that still exist and you just need to take a bright look at clothing shops for men and women to see how the separation works. Just look at this example - A woman who works and supports the family is considered highly independent and capable, while a man is considered normal. A man who takes care of kids a lot of times is considered very competent, even if he is just marginally good parent. A woman taking care of kids is considered normal
- A beauty culture that forces women to spend big amounts of money on becoming and being pretty, because it's a women's "biggest weapon", but calls them superficial when they take care of their appearance too much. Men spend less money on beauty and are more pressured into success, both social and economical. This leads into problems such as anorexia, depression, eating disorders, etc.
- In the US there seems to be a lack of proper reproductive rights law enforcement for some women, but I guess it depends on the state. Growing up in a religious household doesn't help.

Please don't reply with "but men suffer in situations X and Y". Men face problems but men's problems are not the same as women's, so equating both is wrong. If someone wants to discuss men's issues, start another thread, I'll happily reply

(March 2, 2015 at 4:24 pm)I_am_not_mafia Wrote: Would you be contented having the right to apply for work even though it meant that you are less likely to be offered the job

Things like this need to be analysed case by case, you can't just say women don't get jobs as much just because they are women. What if the man is actually more qualified and so gets the job because of that?

(March 2, 2015 at 4:24 pm)I_am_not_mafia Wrote: and even if you were successful, were going to be on a lesser wage for doing exactly the same work just because you are a man?

That is just rubbish. Can anyone point to any job anywhere, where men and women do the same job and yet men are paid more? You can't, because it just doesn't happen any more. You'd think that if an employer could get away with paying women less, they would just fire all the men to save money on wages. And if this did actually happen anymore, you'd think there would be an uproar about it, the scale and speed with which news can be distributed nowadays.

(March 2, 2015 at 4:24 pm)I_am_not_mafia Wrote: Would you still be contented knowing that you are also less likely to get promotion?

Again, there are many factors involved in this, it would be very hard to demonstrate that sexism is the primary reason for this.

Quote:Things like this need to be analysed case by case, you can't just say women don't get jobs as much just because they are women. What if the man is actually more qualified and so gets the job because of that?

I think he/she is talking about equal qualifications, obviously... Otherwise it doesn't make sense. You are the one assuming the man's is more qualified. If you have 50% of the population occupying 5%-10% of well paid jobs and power positions something's wrong, unless you want to argue that men are biologically superior in intelligence. If you really have equal opportunities for both genders it doesn't make sense for women to get paid less and occupy so few positions of power. Don't you think? after all - Equal opportunities usually balances the number. Why the hell should one gender be less interested in working and earning lots of money?

Quote:That is just rubbish. Can anyone point to any job anywhere, where men and women do the same job and yet men are paid more? You can't, because it just doesn't happen any more. You'd think that if an employer could get away with paying women less, they would just fire all the men to save money on wages. And if this did actually happen anymore, you'd think there would be an uproar about it, the scale and speed with which news can be distributed nowadays.

Fire all men? Do you know what economical ignorance means? You just demonstrated it. I'm not going to say why that wouldn't work. You see, first of all 50% of the working force is men and obviously you need men to work, you cant' survive with only 50% of the population working, what would the other 50% live on?

The wage gap is not for people with different jobs, it means that if someone holds the same job (example - doctor) you are more likely to receive more as a man. You can't say it doesn't happen any more because the evidence points otherwise. The wage gap exists even on female dominated fields, and exists even when both work the same hours and are productive. There's a lot more to it than people's choices, there's sociology and cultural barriers involved.

To answer your first question - Basically any job, including some female dominated ones. You are, on average, more likely to make more money as a man. Even if you consider it justified, it's a fact. You are easily promoted, suffer little workplace sexual harassment, you don't need to worry about getting fired or getting your career affected negatively because you got pregnant, you are expected to be aggressive because it's a masculine trait, etc.

Quote:Again, there are many factors involved in this, it would be very hard to demonstrate that sexism is the primary reason for this.

If one group gets promotions more often despite both groups having degree and skills for the job then it's most likely motivated by a bias. If I showed you a graph with 100 people, 50 whites and 50 blacks with same qualifications, and only whites got the job, would you say it's not racism?

Bad Wolf, obviously you didn't read the link I posted earlier. That is just one link to many different studies all showing that on average women get paid less for doing the same job even if they are equally qualified, are less likely to be promoted and less likely to have their work valued. There are plenty more studies out there showing the same thing.

If you disagree with this, then please post peer reviewed studies showing that this isn't the case. Just dismissing it as rubbish shows that you can't argue your case.

(March 2, 2015 at 4:59 pm)Dystopia Wrote: I think he/she is talking about equal qualifications, obviously... Otherwise it doesn't make sense. You are the one assuming the man's is more qualified.

Erm...no I wasn't.

(March 2, 2015 at 4:59 pm)Dystopia Wrote: If you have 50% of the population occupying 5%-10% of well paid jobs and power positions something's wrong, unless you want to argue that men are biologically superior in intelligence. If you really have equal opportunities for both genders it doesn't make sense for women to get paid less and occupy so few positions of power. Don't you think? after all - Equal opportunities usually balances the number. Why the hell should one gender be less interested in working and earning lots of money?

Women go in for less well paying jobs, simple as. They also take way more time off work than men do, and visit their doctor way more often than men. Then of course, pregnancy makes it more difficult for women to work as well.

(March 2, 2015 at 4:59 pm)Dystopia Wrote:
Fire all men? Do you know what economical ignorance means? You just demonstrated it. I'm not going to say why that wouldn't work. You see, first of all 50% of the working force is men and obviously you need men to work, you cant' survive with only 50% of the population working, what would the other 50% live on?

Okay, you shouldn't really insult other people when you quite clearly didn't understand what I was saying. I wasn't talking about all men all over the world, only an idiot would think that I was saying that. I meant in, for example, an office. All the men are paid more than the women for the same jobs. So why doesn't the employer fire all the men that work there, hire all women and save money?

(March 2, 2015 at 4:59 pm)Dystopia Wrote: The wage gap is not for people with different jobs, it means that if someone holds the same job (example - doctor) you are more likely to receive more as a man.

Not all doctors are equal. As a male doctor, you are more likely to earn more money, simply because they go into higher paying jobs. Women are more likely to go into lower paying jobs like pediatrics because they like children more, whereas men are more likely to be brain or heart surgeons, which pay more.

(March 2, 2015 at 4:59 pm)Dystopia Wrote: You can't say it doesn't happen any more because the evidence points otherwise. The wage gap exists even on female dominated fields, and exists even when both work the same hours and are productive. There's a lot more to it than people's choices, there's sociology and cultural barriers involved.

You still haven't given me any examples of jobs where men earn more than women for exactly the same work.

(March 2, 2015 at 4:59 pm)Dystopia Wrote: To answer your first question - Basically any job, including some female dominated ones. You are, on average, more likely to make more money as a man. Even if you consider it justified, it's a fact. You are easily promoted, suffer little workplace sexual harassment, you don't need to worry about getting fired or getting your career affected negatively because you got pregnant, you are expected to be aggressive because it's a masculine trait, etc.

And none of that is relevant since we're talking about a wage gap.

(March 2, 2015 at 4:59 pm)Dystopia Wrote: If one group gets promotions more often despite both groups having degree and skills for the job then it's most likely motivated by a bias. If I showed you a graph with 100 people, 50 whites and 50 blacks with same qualifications, and only whites got the job, would you say it's not racism?

Can you show me a graph where 100 people, 50 men and 50 women and only the men got the jobs?

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(March 2, 2015 at 5:40 pm)I_am_not_mafia Wrote: Bad Wolf, obviously you didn't read the link I posted earlier.

It didn't work for me

(March 2, 2015 at 4:59 pm)Dystopia Wrote: That is just one link to many different studies all showing that on average women get paid less for doing the same job even if they are equally qualified,

Can you tell me any specific jobs where this happens since i can't read the link. Also, I hope that the employers of these people were arrested since it's illegal to pay a woman less for the same work. Were they arrested?

(March 2, 2015 at 4:59 pm)Dystopia Wrote: If you disagree with this, then please post peer reviewed studies showing that this isn't the case. Just dismissing it as rubbish shows that you can't argue your case.

Oh I can argue my case, I just don't want to, not with unpleasant people like Dystopia who goes into a SJW rage every time feminism is mentioned.