Holy crap, MA81... I really hope you're a poe.

(March 7, 2015 at 8:46 pm)MilesAbbott81 Wrote: Again, God is above all rules and limitations. This isn't another category, because that word implies multiple entries. God is the entire category. Everything must have a source, we must eventually be led to a source that is beyond the limitations of physics. The logic is the evidence.

Then you need to demonstrate that god is the entirety of that category, instead of just asserting that.

And also? A pre-big bang universe is beyond the limitations of our understanding of physics. You might want to read some physics sources, before you decide what the current models of it is.

Quote:The category isn't available to you because you refuse this "special pleading" thing of which you speak.

Serious question: do you know what special pleading is, and why it's fallacious? It's okay if you don't, but that is something we'd need to clear up; the way you're saying this makes it look as though you have absolutely no idea what the objection is.

Quote: You claim it's a non-argument, I say it is perfectly reasonable. If you want to go ahead and say that there were two gods from which all existence sprang, well that would be another discussion I suppose, but at least you would be conceding that there must be a supernatural explanation to explain existence, as there must be, based on the laws of physics.

Where in the laws of physics do you get the idea that supernatural causation must be a part of the origin of the universe?

Quote:Physics says the universe is impossible, therefore physics says existence is impossible. And who can accomplish the impossible but God?

I think you're gonna need a citation for that first claim.

Quote:I believe I've answered this several times now. Read above.

Explanations require a "how?" answer. How did god create the universe? If you can't say that, you don't have an explanation when you say god; it's roughly akin to being asked how hot dogs are made, and answering with "meat." Even if you're correct, you've done nothing to advance the knowledge that the questioner actually wanted when they asked you.

(March 7, 2015 at 7:57 pm)MilesAbbott81 Wrote: He didn't sacrifice Himself to Himself. He did it for us - it was an expression of His love. And He was flesh and blood, so of course He could die...by your logic, neither can human beings die, because we are eternal beings as well.

So let me get this straight. He created original sin, since he - according to that warped logic - created Adam and Eve and set up his little sadistic experiment. Of course he knew the outcome beforehand because he's omniscient.

So he gets down to earth in the guise of his son, who's not really his son but himself in one of his three personas and stages his own little splatter show to free humanity from original sin he created in the first place.

So let's assume for a moment I'm buying into that absurd tale so far. To whom did he sacrifice this Jesus shell? And was he dead for three days, meaning there was no god for 72 hours? If the answer is no, as it always turns out to be, there never was a sacrifice, since nothing was lost. A sacrifice by definition demands for something precious being lost and not some cheap circus trick.

And according to the novel, jeez only was dead for a blink of a gnat's eye lash in god time. Hardly a sacrifice.

Also, why was it necessary for God to come to earth to experience being human? Being omniscient he would already know. Plot holes on plot holes.

But it's enough of you don't think too hard.

(March 7, 2015 at 8:55 pm)JesusHChrist Wrote: And according to the novel, jeez only was dead for a blink of a gnat's eye lash in god time. Hardly a sacrifice.

Also, why was it necessary for God to come to earth to experience being human? Being omniscient he would already know. Plot holes on plot holes.

But it's enough of you don't think too hard.

Ya, he gave up his life as a carpenter in the desert to live in paradise as an all powerful god, all for us.

(March 7, 2015 at 7:17 pm)MilesAbbott81 Wrote: Well, I got derailed into discussing a "generic Deist God," but to me there is only one God, the very same as your "preposterous Christian God." I can't help but argue as though they are one and the same.

An analogy would be if you are trying to make us believe in flying unicorns and you show evidence for horses. A flying unicorn is a special type of horse, so you can't just make the case for horses and declare victory. Each Christian sect imagines God differently too. Ideally each sect needs slightly different evidence to prove their slightly different God.

BTW: I think for this discussion you only need to define your God and make the case that he is good; you don't need to make the case that your God exists (that's a lot harder IMO).

(March 7, 2015 at 8:52 pm)rexbeccarox Wrote: Holy crap, MA81... I really hope you're a poe.

Agree, but really, this is the level even their best and brightest have, so how could anyone tell the difference?

Naked assertions, logical fallacies galore, misunderstanding science. They really have nothing else. And they wonder why we scorn and mock.

(March 7, 2015 at 8:53 pm)Esquilax Wrote: Then you need to demonstrate that god is the entirety of that category, instead of just asserting that.

*Sighs* That's the thing; I already have. I'm really not sure how else to describe my argument to you.

(March 7, 2015 at 8:53 pm)Esquilax Wrote: And also? A pre-big bang universe is beyond the limitations of our understanding of physics. You might want to read some physics sources, before you decide what the current models of it is.

I never said anything about a pre-big bang universe, I simply said that God could've created the universe (or perhaps its expansion and formation would be more accurate) using the big bang. Whatever the current model, no model explains the origin of the matter, so going into details is pointless.

(March 7, 2015 at 8:53 pm)Esquilax Wrote:

Quote:The category isn't available to you because you refuse this "special pleading" thing of which you speak.

Serious question: do you know what special pleading is, and why it's fallacious? It's okay if you don't, but that is something we'd need to clear up; the way you're saying this makes it look as though you have absolutely no idea what the objection is.

Actually, no, I'd never heard the special pleading argument before, but I inferred the meaning from context. I looked it up just now to make sure, and I inferred correctly. God justifies the exception by His definition as omnipotent. As I've said multiple times now and in many ways, God is necessarily above all rules and limitations, if He created our existence. I see no point in repeating myself any further, so this will be the last time I mention it.

(March 7, 2015 at 8:53 pm)Esquilax Wrote: Where in the laws of physics do you get the idea that supernatural causation must be a part of the origin of the universe?

Again, already answered multiple times in multiple ways. There is only so much I can do here.
[quote='Esquilax' pid='893275' dateline='1425775994']

Quote:Physics says the universe is impossible, therefore physics says existence is impossible. And who can accomplish the impossible but God?

I think you're gonna need a citation for that first claim.

Unless physics has all of a sudden added the spontaneous creation of matter to its lexicon, I certainly do not. My citation is logic...can I do nothing but repeat myself here? Apparently not.

(March 7, 2015 at 8:53 pm)Esquilax Wrote: Explanations require a "how?" answer. How did god create the universe? If you can't say that, you don't have an explanation when you say god; it's roughly akin to being asked how hot dogs are made, and answering with "meat." Even if you're correct, you've done nothing to advance the knowledge that the questioner actually wanted when they asked you.

Well, at least it's a new question. The answer is, how the hell should I know? You're asking me to explain the unexplainable. If I knew how to create something from nothing, I'd be a god myself.

Why must you have answers to everything? Why must everything be explained, categorized, analyzed and interpreted?

Why do you want so badly for there not to be a God? That is the most important question.

I have laid out the reasons why god is not good the only good thing he did in the bible is create life and that's about it and the only good thing he did.

MA81, if you're aware of the fact that you can't explain your god, why are you contributing to this thread? Do you really think a bunch of woo, logical fallacies, circular reasoning, and other crap we've heard a million times is going to make us see it your way?