It's more a matter of narrowing down which gods could exist given the facts we have.

god only did 1 good thing and only 1 good thing creating life but only for the sole purpose for his creations to worship him.
And also on top of that he creates a hell so how is good good again since he created both good and evil. But only showing how evil
and self righteous and also want's constant attention and worship. So god of the bible is evil, manipulative, really all in all untrust worthy... because
you know he swaps sides.

(March 16, 2015 at 10:04 pm)daver49 Wrote: The question (without a question mark) posed in None's first line: if Christians can explain why (my italics) their god is good without resorting to "Because the bible says" I would also say any statement construed as a challenge implies a question like: "can you do better?" In the case we are discussing, the question is more like, "Can't you do any better than that?" I believe that is a perfectly valid question because we know one side begins by not accepting the authority of the Bible, while another one does. So, how to bridge the gap? Do people want to bridge the gap? Does it even matter?

I personally find the bible's authority an absolute sticking point. I can't think of anything that has that kind of authority for me, nor would I want to.

But then I'm not really interested in the goodness of any god in question. I can't really get involved in the particulars of something which means so little to me to begin with. I assume the people who want a god in their life either think it is good or else they hope that by praising it enough it will at least not slaughter them outright.

It seems to me we just have to agree to disagree about gods until someone produces some tangible evidence. Not that you need to justify your belief to me. I believe in plenty of things which I could not necessarily justify to your satisfaction, but I don't intend to abandon them on that account either.

But if I could ask you to explain one thing for me it would be "why the bible"? I get, "why not". What I don't get is "why".

(March 17, 2015 at 1:37 am)whateverist Wrote: ...or else they hope that by praising it enough it will at least not slaughter them outright.

Ha ha, that's a pretty big "OR ELSE". I suppose if someone believes this to be an actual possible consequence, my telling them it's nonsense is going to serve as little consolation.

(March 17, 2015 at 1:37 am)whateverist Wrote: But if I could ask you to explain one thing for me it would be "why the bible"? I get, "why not". What I don't get is "why".

Good question. In many places in the bible, it seems we are told we don't need it. An example would be Psalm 19:1. Another place would be Romans 1:20 or Hebrews 10:16. And of course, these books were written before the canon of bible was established (there being disagreement about what those books were too). To my mind, it certainly isn't anything for people to fight about unless they are trying to prove their superiority or "specialness" compared to others. Such seems to be the nature of any conflict.
But then, I really don't know anything compared to the total volume of knowledge in the universe(s).

One of us really misunderstood Whateverist's question...

(March 17, 2015 at 7:54 pm)The Reality Salesman Wrote: One of us really misunderstood Whateverist's question...

Who?

Well it seems to me that the answer was "maybe you're right, perhaps it isn't essential". But somehow I don't think you feel that way yourself, daver.

(March 16, 2015 at 10:04 pm)daver49 Wrote: The question (without a question mark) posed in None's first line: if Christians can explain why (my italics) their god is good without resorting to "Because the bible says" I would also say any statement construed as a challenge implies a question like: "can you do better?" In the case we are discussing, the question is more like, "Can't you do any better than that?" I believe that is a perfectly valid question because we know one side begins by not accepting the authority of the Bible, while another one does. So, how to bridge the gap? Do people want to bridge the gap? Does it even matter?

Okay, so you're saying that the question is "Can Christians explain why their god is good without resorting to "Because the bible says"?". I'd suggest that more informative answers (and a broader range of them) will result if we cut out the value-ladened 'Can't you do better...' approach and simply challenge Christians to justify the 'goodness' of their version of the Christian God. Some Christians simply won't be able to cut out the bible whereas others will. Also the justifications will provide us with some pertinent discussion topics. Whether that takes the form of 'bridge-building' (e.g. "I just want to understand where you're coming from...") or a more adversarial scenario (e.g. "That's not 'good' because..") will depend entirely on the people having the discussions.

I would rephrase the question to say, "Can you show your God wants us to have maximum wellbeing and minimum suffering?"

The only possible way to answer yes is to admit God is not all powerful. Then at least you can make a case that the suffering we endure is necessary for his overall plan of overall wellbeing/suffering efficiency, in ways we can't understand, due to his lack of power.

It's not a good explanation, but it's the only intellectually honest one, in my opinion.

Well, no one needs answer since I've answered for you :p

Next week I'll tell you why you really chose your career and how long you've been secretly doing "that thing".