You would think because this has been going on for so long, even before I was born and I am 48, both sides would grow tired of it. I am honestly tired of both sides.

They like to think they are different but they are not. Humans will always seek to get the toughest guy on the block to defend them if they feel threatened. What perpetuates this human stupidity is the very elephant in the room neither wants to face. Both sides switch to race when you tell them it is religion. Then when you call them on race, they switch to culture. Then when you call them on that, they say it is ethnic.

Cut the fucking crap guys. This is about religion and if neither had been invented neither side would be fighting over it. This is unfortunately mundane human evolution going on and labels are what people hide behind to justify the "other" as being the outsider.

Sure you can get some on both sides to say "look, we don't want to subjugate the other" and both certainly can point to points in history of the two religions were they co existed. But no one wants to face when those things happened it was because one side had enough power that the other really had no choice but to accept their minority status.

Human tribalism will not go away. It is unrealistic for either side to expect the other to completely submit. But there will be no peace as long as religion is ignored as the root cause of all of this.

The only thing that will bring more peace to that region, is when people stop digging in their heals looking to put the toughest guy in power for either side, and everyone accepts that there is no "better club" or "chosen people". If they both pull their heads out of their asses, then it will not matter if you have one state or two states because a secular common law will create equality for everyone.

But do not hand me this crap that this is not about Allah vs Yahweh, it always has been.

(March 22, 2015 at 10:38 am)Brian37 Wrote: Cut the fucking crap guys. This is about religion and if neither had been invented neither side would be fighting over it. This is unfortunately mundane human evolution going on and labels are what people hide behind to justify the "other" as being the outsider.

No, it's not. At least not originally. You should be old enough to remember that during the 70ies and early 80ies it was a nationalist conflict with hardly any religion coming into the mix. That only started to change after 1987 and the first Intifada. Both, Palestinians and (Zionist) jews were mostly secular and rather left leaning, with the Kibbuz movement nearly a communist experiment with no private property and sharing of the ressources.

The Israelis have become the Hatfields to the palastinain Mccoys in the Appalachian bumpkinville of the world. I hope they feel the Zionist dream is fulfilled.

If you saw my replies to the other thread, you'd see I provided some evidence that ethnically (and racially if you want to use that word) both sides have much more in common than different. So yeah, making it about ethnicity is not wise.

I would say it's about religion but also nationalistic tribalism (which is not a necessarily bad sentiment if you ask me) and the combination of both. I don't know what I would do if I was Israeli or how would I feel, so I prefer to not make judgements based on an outsider's perspective.

(March 22, 2015 at 10:49 am)abaris Wrote:

(March 22, 2015 at 10:38 am)Brian37 Wrote: Cut the fucking crap guys. This is about religion and if neither had been invented neither side would be fighting over it. This is unfortunately mundane human evolution going on and labels are what people hide behind to justify the "other" as being the outsider.

No, it's not. At least not originally. You should be old enough to remember that during the 70ies and early 80ies it was a nationalist conflict with hardly any religion coming into the mix. That only started to change after 1987 and the first Intifada. Both, Palestinians and (Zionist) jews were mostly secular and rather left leaning, with the Kibbuz movement nearly a communist experiment with no private property and sharing of the ressources.

Yes it is. Cherry picking individuals from either side who claim it isn't you certainly can. But please, if no one ever claimed Allah was a real god or Yahweh was a real god, there would not be this conflict.

The only thing reasonable to argue if those religions were not invented that some others would be invented in their place and those would be fought over.

Funny how the secular west, even with all it's imperfections has less a problem getting religious people to behave.

Now do not take that OP as some utopia where we get rid of religion as if you could. But you don't manage differences by ignoring the problem.

Race and culture and ethnic issues are what people use to hide behind the core problem. Both sides use this tactic and if they would accept it they would realize that secular pluralistic common law is much better than having social pecking orders written in law favoring one group over another.

"Just do it my way and we can get along" is rooted in religion. The sooner they both face it it will not matter if there are two states or one states, if they ever get to secular law(which Israel likes to claim it is but really is not) they would find the difference would still exist but be much more equal and manageable.

Israel would like to think it is completely secular but it has the same stupid attitude that both Christians on the left and right have with "Christian nation". Israel likes to hide behind race to avoid it is about religion. Netenyahu promised he would base state law on the Talmud. Now tell me how that book would represent Muslims outside treating them as pets at best.

In America the First Amendment is an anti monopoly law that says social pecking orders are banned based on issues of religion. It does not prevent religious people from partaking in government, it merely says it can not be used to include or exclude "no religious test".

Now lets say for Jews it is a race? I often here them point to China and say "They do it, why cant we". Sure they are right, but why wold you want to do that? The part HUMANS FORGET is that kind of lack of pluralism makes it hard for outsiders to be anything more than guests.

I am sure China loves guests, but merely as guests. If they want to even have a race based country they would have to know even if they managed to migrate to China, have a mixed kid, that kid would be a citizen of china, but because they are not pure, would have a harder time fitting in and almost impossible to run for public office.

Yes Israel does have Arabs and Muslim citizens. But is still a watered down social pecking order. It is religion doing this. And Arabs and Muslims also pull the same crap. I would only agree that between the two Israel is simply more westernized. But both want social pecking orders.

What is so hard to for humans to accept what is more important is civility through neutral law which protects everyone without giving secret winks to certain groups?

We are the same species and both sides are making the same mistakes regardless of which side is more stuck in the past than the other.

(March 22, 2015 at 11:09 am)Brian37 Wrote: Yes it is. Cherry picking individuals from either side who claim it isn't you certainly can. But please, if no one ever claimed Allah was a real god or Yahweh was a real god, there would not be this conflict.

Oh my! Not every conflict originates in religion. There are also territorial conflicts and this started out as one. It still is, stripped from the woo surrounding it these days. And one would be well advised to see it as one. If there was no religion, they would be at each others throats anyway because of the territorial question being unsolved.

Well, Quran 3:26 says this: "Say: "O Allah! Lord of Power (And Rule), Thou givest power to whom Thou pleasest, and Thou strippest off power from whom Thou pleasest: Thou enduest with honour whom Thou pleasest, and Thou bringest low whom Thou pleasest: In Thy hand is all good. Verily, over all things Thou hast power."

And Quran 2:155 says this: "Be sure we shall test you with something of fear and hunger, some loss in goods or lives or the fruits (of your toil), but give glad tidings to those who patiently persevere,"

So it looks like Allah is simply testing the Palestinians. The Palestinians suffer because Allah is testing them. So let's not try and interfere with Allah's plan for Palestine by taking sides, etc. Edit: Then again, if we examine Quran 22:39, it seems that Allah is deliberately choosing not not assist the Palestinians in their struggle. Often Quran verses are more interesting for what they don't say rather than what they do. Quran 22:39 says this:
"To those against whom war is made, permission is given (to fight), because they are wronged;- and verily, Allah is most powerful for their aid;-"

So Allah gives permission for people to fight when their god is unable or unwilling to protect them.

I am not a fan of Sam saying we should keep our hands off of Jews. If you are willing to be a critic of one religion you should be willing to be a critic of everyone, even atheists.

When you know that circumcision is just as vile an act as Muslim mutilation of girls vaginas. And you hear stories about right wing Jews holding a flight back 11 hours because Yahweh told them their dicks would fall off if they sat next to women. You know it is all the same antiquated crap.

That is not to say the world can be forced to give up on such claims. There will never be such a utopia, not even a godless utopia. But I am sick of the idea that there is one group that should be hands off when it comes to blasphemy or criticism.

Once you understand our tribal evolution, you know ALL religions are volcanos. No, you cant get rid of them, and some are more pretty when dormant, but all have the same potential to explode. Right now Islam has the most activity but if you leave any religion alone, it can explode.

It is also why I don't like the idea of atheists trying to compete with religion by trying to create their own moral code. If they successfully market an "atheist moral code" then that too will become ridged, dogmatic, political and become a religion too.

Humans no matter the label have to start accepting, including atheists, that labels don't hold patents on the ability to be cruel or compassionate. Our behavior is in our evolution, not the labels we assign ourselves or others. There is no "other" to compete with. There are simply one species failing to understand our tribal instincts.