(March 24, 2015 at 9:58 am)robvalue Wrote: Url: Nice rebuttal to my argument My pretend christian is now having a crisis of faith.

And yes, the idea that God is omniscient is so ludicrous that it collapses the whole system into nonsense. Try getting someone to admit to that though :p

To Huggy's credit he did answer the question of whether he'd kill his family if God commanded, he said no. No other theist has been able to answer as far as I know.

Thanks again rob . I was going to put links to specific bible verses backing up my claim but it's kind of difficult to do all this typing and editing on my phone :/

You're welcome

(March 24, 2015 at 9:51 am)urlawyer Wrote:

Quote:So the question then becomes if you cut your child's life short (before he could proove to himself whether or not he will be found righteous before God or sinful..) Why wouldn't God simply plug Him back in to another non-monsterous/murderous family, so he could live a full life and face a fair judgement?

Wouldn't an omniscient god already know if the child would grow up to be a good christian or not? Or better yet if he would be killed off by a zealot? In both cases, why would he "plug in" the kid knowing full well he would end up in eternal damnation?

Again as I explained, this life is for our benfit not His. So that we know that eternal damnation is what we deserve.

That is why I asked: " Could you imagine being sent to Hell moments after being created, because God knew you would be a sin monster rather than giving you the oppertunity to determine that for yourself?"

This life is the result of a righteous God giving us an oppertunity to see and experience who and what we really are.

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(March 24, 2015 at 9:58 am)robvalue Wrote: Url: Nice rebuttal to my argument My pretend christian is now having a crisis of faith.

And yes, the idea that God is omniscient is so ludicrous that it collapses the whole system into nonsense. Try getting someone to admit to that though :p

To Huggy's credit he did answer the question of whether he'd kill his family if God commanded, he said no. No other theist has been able to answer as far as I know.

If "god" issued an order contary to the orders written for us in the NT, then that 'god' is not God.

Paul tells us were are to lay our lives down for our families, as Christ laid his life down for the Church..

To gets a different command from 'god' is to receive word for a Muhammad/Joseph smith type angel/deceiving Spirit.

And they told me the natural conclusion to religion wasn't violence. Heh.

While I personally believe steps should be taken to control humanity's runaway population. Killing children is simply not the answer.

(March 24, 2015 at 10:54 am)Drich Wrote: Again as I explained, this life is for our benfit not His. So that we know that eternal damnation is what we deserve.

That is why I asked: " Could you imagine being sent to Hell moments after being created, because God knew you would be a sin monster rather than giving you the oppertunity to determine that for yourself?"

This life is the result of a righteous God giving us an oppertunity to see and experience who and what we really are.

Ok, so perhaps I should reshape my question another way: why wouldn't god just create people he knew would be good and obedient? They could still have free will and have their faith challenged in a healthy and growth providing way, but in the end no one would have to suffer eternal torment.

(March 24, 2015 at 10:54 am)Drich Wrote:

(March 24, 2015 at 9:58 am)robvalue Wrote: Url: Nice rebuttal to my argument My pretend christian is now having a crisis of faith.

And yes, the idea that God is omniscient is so ludicrous that it collapses the whole system into nonsense. Try getting someone to admit to that though :p

To Huggy's credit he did answer the question of whether he'd kill his family if God commanded, he said no. No other theist has been able to answer as far as I know.

If "god" issued an order contary to the orders written for us in the NT, then that 'god' is not God.

Paul tells us were are to lay our lives down for our families, as Christ laid his life down for the Church..

To gets a different command from 'god' is to receive word for a Muhammad/Joseph smith type angel/deceiving Spirit.

So do you follow all the old testament laws God provided?

Quote:Luke 16:17

It is easier for heaven and earth to disappear than for the least stroke of a pen to drop out of the Law.

So basically, if God turned up and told Drich to kill people, he'd tell God he's not God.

I can't imagine he'd take to that too kindly.

(March 24, 2015 at 10:54 am)Drich Wrote:

(March 24, 2015 at 9:51 am)urlawyer Wrote: Wouldn't an omniscient god already know if the child would grow up to be a good christian or not? Or better yet if he would be killed off by a zealot? In both cases, why would he "plug in" the kid knowing full well he would end up in eternal damnation?

Again as I explained, this life is for our benfit not His. So that we know that eternal damnation is what we deserve.

That is why I asked: " Could you imagine being sent to Hell moments after being created, because God knew you would be a sin monster rather than giving you the oppertunity to determine that for yourself?"

This life is the result of a righteous God giving us an oppertunity to see and experience who and what we really are.

---

(March 24, 2015 at 9:58 am)robvalue Wrote: Url: Nice rebuttal to my argument My pretend christian is now having a crisis of faith.

And yes, the idea that God is omniscient is so ludicrous that it collapses the whole system into nonsense. Try getting someone to admit to that though :p

To Huggy's credit he did answer the question of whether he'd kill his family if God commanded, he said no. No other theist has been able to answer as far as I know.

If "god" issued an order contary to the orders written for us in the NT, then that 'god' is not God.

Paul tells us were are to lay our lives down for our families, as Christ laid his life down for the Church..

To gets a different command from 'god' is to receive word for a Muhammad/Joseph smith type angel/deceiving Spirit.

1. All in all god didn't need to create hell by god creating a hell in your world view he is not all loving when he sends his own creations to said place and forgets about them. In the reality of things life really has no meaning at all no external one.

2. Again do not call upon Paul he is self appointed choose another apostle.

How to save children from hell:

Step 1: don't introduce them to Christianity.

...there is no step 2.

(March 24, 2015 at 12:00 pm)KevinM1 Wrote: How to save children from hell:

Step 1: don't introduce them to Christianity. religion.

...there is no step 2.

Fixed that for you.

(March 24, 2015 at 11:29 am)urlawyer Wrote: Ok, so perhaps I should reshape my question another way: why wouldn't god just create people he knew would be good and obedient? They could still have free will and have their faith challenged in a healthy and growth providing way, but in the end no one would have to suffer eternal torment.

Because God knows if you take the good, and then you take the bad, and you take them both, thier you have the facts of Life... The facts of life.



In truth 'the bad' often times are fodder or flux needed to turn iron into harden steel. The bad serve a purpose. In that they help the good to be shaped better.

Quote:So do you follow all the old testament laws God provided?

Luke 16:17

It is easier for heaven and earth to disappear than for the least stroke of a pen to drop out of the Law.

[/quote]
Christ meant the whole law.. So what does the whole law mean? Does it stop at a list of do's and dont's? Absolutly not. The law also makes provisions for attonement for sin. In finding and excepting the atonement offered by Christ we complete the whole law.

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(March 24, 2015 at 11:31 am)robvalue Wrote: So basically, if God turned up and told Drich to kill people, he'd tell God he's not God.

I can't imagine he'd take to that too kindly.

Yes. I'd spit in his eye and tell him he's going to be in a lot of trouble when God calls Him to account.

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(March 24, 2015 at 11:39 am)dyresand Wrote:

(March 24, 2015 at 10:54 am)Drich Wrote: Again as I explained, this life is for our benfit not His. So that we know that eternal damnation is what we deserve.

That is why I asked: " Could you imagine being sent to Hell moments after being created, because God knew you would be a sin monster rather than giving you the oppertunity to determine that for yourself?"

This life is the result of a righteous God giving us an oppertunity to see and experience who and what we really are.

---

If "god" issued an order contary to the orders written for us in the NT, then that 'god' is not God.

Paul tells us were are to lay our lives down for our families, as Christ laid his life down for the Church..

To gets a different command from 'god' is to receive word for a Muhammad/Joseph smith type angel/deceiving Spirit.

1. All in all god didn't need to create hell by god creating a hell in your world view he is not all loving when he sends his own creations to said place and forgets about them. In the reality of things life really has no meaning at all no external one.

2. Again do not call upon Paul he is self appointed choose another apostle.

1) there are so many things wrong with this statement I don't know where to begin...

In your estimation when did God create Hell? Use Genesis and point to one of the seven days listed... Just about every single account of Hell shows it to be the absents of creation, the death of it, or the place where the created is destroyed.
(The grave, the pit, the lake of fire, eternal darkness.) to me hell seems to be the absence of creation, not part of it.

Second you mention an all loving God.. Where in the bible does it say God is supposed to be all loving? Matter of fact the bible says the exact opposite. There are those in whom God hates..

Third what makes you think we are all God's creation? The bible only ever says God created Adam, and from Adam God took a rib and then produced Eve, every other being after that was a reproduction of what God initially created.

Forth the things of life all take meaning if one can first focus on God.

That is four wrong statements for four charges stated. That's a new record dry sand.

2) calling upon Paul is being faithful to the bible Given to us by God. If He did not want us to be faithful to Paul's writtings it is on Him to Change or delete what Paul said or to the parable of the talents which is where I got the 'be faithful to what you are given' principle that Jesus taught.

Only a fool would take 1/2 of a blue print and then try and build a house.