(August 29, 2010 at 10:06 am)Watson Wrote: There is no objective evidence for anything, Zen, since all of our experiences are limited to the subjective.

Objective evidence is evidence that is measurable.

For instance I can say I have a motorbike, to prove my case I must produce said motorbike.

Which can then be measured in various ways which we can all agree on i.e weight, size, etc.

If I were to say that it is the best bike in the world that would be a very subjective truth.

How do you get from here.....

Quote:If there exists objective evidence for something, and it can be shown as such quite clearly to the person experiencing it,

To here......

Quote: then it becomes quite plausible to begin wondering about a God or Gods in relation to this evidence.

If objective evidence means that it can be measured, then anything can be measured, even if others don't perceive it.

(August 29, 2010 at 9:29 pm)Disinter Wrote: Yeah you are assuming, and you are assuming that an objective view is truly possible. How are we lead to god when nothing about him is verifiable?

*facepalm* Nothing is verifiable unless you accept, acknowledge, and believe in an external objective truth. Acknowledging this, we are lead to wonder just where an external truth would come from, and God is a distinct possibility in that scenario.

Quote:"Grow and progress as human beings"? Is that more spirituality pep talk? Do we feel this progress? How is it verifiable?

Yes, yes, and yes to those first three questions. Spirituality always comes into play when we are talking of God, it is unavoidable. The only way of measuring our progress, since objective evidence is that which can be measured, is to have a a perfect model to compare with, such as a fully progressed being or entity, i.e.- a God.

As for 'how is it verifiable?' ...? What do you mean? It is a personal growth and can only be compared to an objective, outside source that has 'completed' its growth...such as a God or God-like being.

Quote:You aren't being very specific....Are you suggesting that a connection with so called god(s) is possible?

Uhm...yes. Yes I am. That's called the spirit.

(August 30, 2010 at 9:51 am)Zen Badger Wrote: Objective evidence is evidence that is measurable.

If we are limited to our subjective experience, how can we measure anything?

Quote:For instance I can say I have a motorbike, to prove my case I must produce said motorbike.

And you must also prove to me that you and the motorbike exist, not just as subjective constructs of my inner mind, but as objective entities within the universe itself.

Quote:Which can then be measured in various ways which we can all agree on i.e weight, size, etc.

We can only agree on them if we accept that there is an external truth.

Quote:If I were to say that it is the best bike in the world that would be a very subjective truth.

It's more or less just an opinion, but oh well.

Quote:How do you get from here.....

Quote:If there exists objective evidence for something, and it can be shown as such quite clearly to the person experiencing it,

To here......

Quote: then it becomes quite plausible to begin wondering about a God or Gods in relation to this evidence.

If there is an objective, external truth, then it must have a source and must come from some beginning point. As I said above:

Quote:Acknowledging this, we are lead to wonder just where an external truth would come from, and God is a distinct possibility in that scenario.

But where is this external objective source of truth, morals etc. There is no point being an objective source of anything if you remain hidden. And any god of any theism you wish to name remains hidden. Even if there was an objective source radiating this out into the universe via whatever mechanisms you wish to posit, how do you know it's a god let alone your god?

Then there is the spirit. Everything we know about the human anatomy since the advent of modern medical science is that there is no immaterial us. We are our physical beings, take away our brains and we stop being us.

In each case you have baseless assertions, but in each case there is evidence leading to a more satisfying and simpler conclusions. The evidence supports atheism being true or at least more likely. Theism is a very remote and abstract answer to these problems.

(August 30, 2010 at 4:44 pm)Captain Scarlet Wrote: But where is this external objective source of truth, morals etc. There is no point being an objective source of anything if you remain hidden. And any god of any theism you wish to name remains hidden.

Take a look around you. There is an entire world out there. It is objective and external.

Hidden God what now?

Quote:Even if there was an objective source radiating this out into the universe via whatever mechanisms you wish to posit, how do you know it's a god let alone your god?

What do you mean 'your god'? I do hope you're not assuming things about my beliefs. Then again, I'm almost certain you are.

How do I know? Well, certain experiences have lead me to believe that there is an external force/intelligence/moral guide acting upon this universe in such a way as to benefit humanity as much as possible. These are charactertistics usually attributed to a god.

If it isn't a god, then tell me, what do you think it is?

Quote:Then there is the spirit. Everything we know about the human anatomy since the advent of modern medical science is that there is no immaterial us. We are our physical beings, take away our brains and we stop being us.

There is no way of proving through material means that there is an immaterial us, so anatomical stdies have no baring whatsoever here. Do you realize how complex and intricate the brain's design is? It is far more vast than we could ever hope to fully comprehend, and no amount of research could explain all of why the brain does what it does.

Besides this, the body is usually considered a mere shell for the spirit, so suggesting that,(granted a spirit does exist) once the body dies, the spirit moves on, is not at all unreasonable. You just have to consider the characteristics of a spirit.

Quote:In each case you have baseless assertions,

No I do not. In each case, I have assertions based on the experience of myself and countless others. Sound, rational people who are not in any way deluded throughout their daily life. Except, according to you, when it comes to God.

Quote:but in each case there is evidence leading to a more satisfying and simpler conclusions.

Such as?

Quote:The evidence supports atheism being true or at least more likely.

Not the way I see it.

Quote:Theism is a very remote and abstract answer to these problems.

See above.

Take a look around you. There is an entire world out there. It is objective and external. Hidden God what now?

- I agree the world is objcetive, existence exists. I do not see how this responds to the point that if god was trying to be an external benchmark then why remain hidden?

What do you mean 'your god'? I do hope you're not assuming things about my beliefs. Then again, I'm almost certain you are.

- Not sure what you are getting at. You have a god, I don't; hence your god?!?

How do I know? Well, certain experiences have lead me to believe that there is an external force/intelligence/moral guide acting upon this universe in such a way as to benefit humanity as much as possible. These are charactertistics usually attributed to a god.If it isn't a god, then tell me, what do you think it is?

- I am not making a knowledge claim but you are, you need to establish how you know its god. I don't need to provide evidence it isn't. Huge burden for the theist making the claim, in this case yourself. Otherwise it remains baseless mystcism.

There is no way of proving through material means that there is an immaterial us, so anatomical stdies have no baring whatsoever here. Do you realize how complex and intricate the brain's design is? It is far more vast than we could ever hope to fully comprehend, and no amount of research could explain all of why the brain does what it does.Besides this, the body is usually considered a mere shell for the spirit, so suggesting that,(granted a spirit does exist) once the body dies, the spirit moves on, is not at all unreasonable. You just have to consider the characteristics of a spirit.

- But this is indistinguishable from magic. I could assert that science could not detect the immaterial leprachauns that really are us. On the other hand if there is an immaterial us that survives death, then if you expect us to go to an afterlife (I guess one nice one nasty experience) surely our identity is preserved in the spirit. If not then whats the point of survivng death, if it is how do you explain that brain damage in certain sections of the brain almost always leads to identity and personality changes. For this reasons Dualism (separate souls from bodies) is not a prevalent thesis amongst philosphers. A simpler explanation is that the mind and brain are connected and there is no soul or spirit

No I do not. In each case, I have assertions based on the experience of myself and countless others. Sound, rational people who are not in any way deluded throughout their daily life. Except, according to you, when it comes to God.

- I am not saying people who have experience aren't sound and rational. Where did you get that from? It is rational to believe in a god if you subscribe to certain worldviews , and you'll be positively disposed to find god in the universe (whether actually or by inference). Doesn't mean those worldviews are true. We all I'm afraid suffer from delusions (usually about our own importance!). However any assertions from experience are flawed by there nature. Even if every single christian had exactly the same experience at excatly the same time, that would be about 1/3 of the worlds population. Hindu experiences of Ginesh are equally as valid to the individual, but like your and others say nothing for a truth claim about Ginesh or other god/s.

but in each case there is evidence leading to a more satisfying and simpler conclusions.
Such as?

- Mind brain connection v. dualism and the existence of the spirit above

The evidence supports atheism being true or at least more likely. Not the way I see it.

- You don't see it is I do.

---

Take a look around you. There is an entire world out there. It is objective and external. Hidden God what now?

- I agree the world is objcetive, existence exists. I do not see how this responds to the point that if god was trying to be an external benchmark then why remain hidden?

What do you mean 'your god'? I do hope you're not assuming things about my beliefs. Then again, I'm almost certain you are.

- Not sure what you are getting at. You have a god, I don't; hence your god?!?

How do I know? Well, certain experiences have lead me to believe that there is an external force/intelligence/moral guide acting upon this universe in such a way as to benefit humanity as much as possible. These are charactertistics usually attributed to a god.If it isn't a god, then tell me, what do you think it is?

- I am not making a knowledge claim but you are, you need to establish how you know its god. I don't need to provide evidence it isn't. Huge burden for the theist making the claim, in this case yourself. Otherwise it remains baseless mystcism.

There is no way of proving through material means that there is an immaterial us, so anatomical stdies have no baring whatsoever here. Do you realize how complex and intricate the brain's design is? It is far more vast than we could ever hope to fully comprehend, and no amount of research could explain all of why the brain does what it does.Besides this, the body is usually considered a mere shell for the spirit, so suggesting that,(granted a spirit does exist) once the body dies, the spirit moves on, is not at all unreasonable. You just have to consider the characteristics of a spirit.

- But this is indistinguishable from magic. I could assert that science could not detect the immaterial leprachauns that really are us. On the other hand if there is an immaterial us that survives death, then if you expect us to go to an afterlife (I guess one nice one nasty experience) surely our identity is preserved in the spirit. If not then whats the point of survivng death, if it is how do you explain that brain damage in certain sections of the brain almost always leads to identity and personality changes. For this reasons Dualism (separate souls from bodies) is not a prevalent thesis amongst philosphers. A simpler explanation is that the mind and brain are connected and there is no soul or spirit

No I do not. In each case, I have assertions based on the experience of myself and countless others. Sound, rational people who are not in any way deluded throughout their daily life. Except, according to you, when it comes to God.

- I am not saying people who have experience aren't sound and rational. Where did you get that from? It is rational to believe in a god if you subscribe to certain worldviews , and you'll be positively disposed to find god in the universe (whether actually or by inference). Doesn't mean those worldviews are true. We all I'm afraid suffer from delusions (usually about our own importance!). However any assertions from experience are flawed by there nature. Even if every single christian had exactly the same experience at excatly the same time, that would be about 1/3 of the worlds population. Hindu experiences of Ginesh are equally as valid to the individual, but like your and others say nothing for a truth claim about Ginesh or other god/s.

but in each case there is evidence leading to a more satisfying and simpler conclusions.
Such as?

- Mind brain connection v. dualism and the existence of the spirit above

The evidence supports atheism being true or at least more likely. Not the way I see it.

- You don't see it is as I do.

I still don't see the need in acting like there are spirits, gods, etc. when there's no more proof than that of Spiderman (considering that is the base of your argument, Watson). I can't believe you do not see that you are assuming spirituality and such exists. The lack of evidence and lack of coherent explanations are obviously apparent. Any sensible theist that I've met (which is a bit rare in my experience) will admit to my previous sentence. Do what you like though....

EDIT: Oh yeah I forgot, I was once a theist too and I never felt that spiritual connection you say that we will feel. Are you supposed to take my word for it, as I am supposed to take your word that your statements carry any weight? You see, you aren't verifying nor proving anything you say. I'm sorry, I just can't accept it. Do what you like though.....but don't expect me to follow suit.

Quote:Because it is far more likely that there are no gods and you are simply wasting your time.

Again, it's your time and you can waste it however you like.

Thats a big step
1. We do not know the mind of God, or never will
2. Therefore, God does not exist

Can you show how you got to your second premise?

Quote:But when you people start pushing your nonsense on everyone else that becomes a problem.

I dont push my 'nonsense' I dont care if you are a Christian or not, but if you have questions about God then I would be happy to attempt to answer them...

The human imagination has created millions of assorted deities. You reject all but one of them as false. Why is it so hard for you to understand how I can reject yours as well?

What are the odds that your 'god' is real?




I submit you know as much about god as my dog knows about nuclear physics. What you "know" is what you have been told by phonies who know no more than you.

And plenty of you theists cannot resist sprinkling your god dust all over the landscape, Sol.

Quote:The human imagination has created millions of assorted deities. You reject all but one of them as false. Why is it so hard for you to understand how I can reject yours as well?

What are the odds that your 'god' is real?

Im pretty sure God exists. The reason why I accept Christianity of Paganism is the evidence, that Jesus rose and died again. One has to take a small leap of faith and claim, 'Jesus is Lord.'