(March 24, 2015 at 9:20 pm)I Am Not A Human Being Wrote:

(March 24, 2015 at 9:03 pm)Parkers Tan Wrote: You didn't answer the question of historicity, IANAHB.

I didn't receive it or I must've missed it.

You missed it:

(March 24, 2015 at 8:13 pm)abentwookie Wrote: Are we talking about historically or present day?

(March 24, 2015 at 9:20 pm)I Am Not A Human Being Wrote:

Parks Wrote:Carl Sagan estimated that at least 750,000 women were killed in Europe during the witch-hunts running from 1500 - 1750 CE.

Sounds like hyperbole. Let's not forget that Carl Sagan was not an academic historian.

You can read the argument for yourself, in The Demon-Haunted World..

By the way, are you an academic historian? Just curious.

Quote:They were easily as energetic in the external projection of their religious energy, if not more so, than modern Muslims.

I don't doubt that. But that really says something, doesn't it?

Quote:That some widespread Muslim opinions of today regarding women for example can be compared to Christian Europe during mainly the 1500s and the 1600s.

It shows how far Christianity has evolved and how backwards some commonly held Muslim beliefs are today.

If you have to compare Christianity to Islam in order to make Christianity look good, well, gosh, I'm underwhelmed.

(March 25, 2015 at 2:34 am)Parkers Tan Wrote: You can read the argument for yourself, in The Demon-Haunted World..

By the way, are you an academic historian? Just curious.

Today's serious and reasearch based estimates speak of a number between 25.000 to 60.000 vicitims throughout Europe between the years 1400 and 1700. In 1701 the last "witch" had been burned on German soil. There's also the higher number of 100.000 floating around, but this estimate is considered incredible when looking at the sources. Europe around the year 1500 is estimated to have had 81 million inhabitants.

It's not the sheer numbers that make this madness, it's that superstition was the official position of certain reigns. Superstition that could get you killed if some neighbour had so much as grudge against you. Once someone was in the machinery, it was next to impossible to escape the inevitable. People were tortured and the burden of proof was reverted. Also the witch trials had a very secular incentive, since the property of the condemned usually fell to the prosecutors.

This is according to the book "Hexen und Hexenprozesse" (Witches and witch trials) edited by Wolfgang Behringer.

Thanks to ISIS, Ben Laden, the extremists and all the terrorist/jihadi motherfuckers, The middle-east people are starting to understand the atheism argument, and to realize that it is not that absurd and it is possible. I think that IT IS the first step into going for a discussion with the other side with an open mind, at least to not attack the atheists and put them in jail. People in my country now think of atheists as better/less-worse than islamist and extremists, and atheists' numbers are increasing on social media, the internet is won the atheists ofc, and the process of middle east being atheist majority is very exponential.

The violence due to islam naturally converts people to atheists, this happened in Lebanon, Iraq and Egypt. I've seen lots of atheist from these countries on the internet, there are LOTS of atheist pages made by Iraq's alone. People are finally seeing the link between the violence and religion.

There is hope, and the best weapon against religion is good education.

(March 25, 2015 at 5:26 am)abaris Wrote:

(March 25, 2015 at 2:34 am)Parkers Tan Wrote: You can read the argument for yourself, in The Demon-Haunted World..

By the way, are you an academic historian? Just curious.

Today's serious and reasearch based estimates speak of a number between 25.000 to 60.000 vicitims throughout Europe between the years 1400 and 1700. In 1701 the last "witch" had been burned on German soil. There's also the higher number of 100.000 floating around, but this estimate is considered incredible when looking at the sources. Europe around the year 1500 is estimated to have had 81 million inhabitants.

It's not the sheer numbers that make this madness, it's that superstition was the official position of certain reigns. Superstition that could get you killed if some neighbour had so much as grudge against you. Once someone was in the machinery, it was next to impossible to escape the inevitable. People were tortured and the burden of proof was reverted. Also the witch trials had a very secular incentive, since the property of the condemned usually fell to the prosecutors.

This is according to the book "Hexen und Hexenprozesse" (Witches and witch trials) edited by Wolfgang Behringer.

Yeah, poking around online, I see your numbers generally supported. It doesn't change the point I was making, that singling out Islam as having a monopoly on barbarity is not really supportable.

Also, I neglected to point out in my previous post his overeliance on tu quoque arguments.

(March 25, 2015 at 12:13 pm)Parkers Tan Wrote: Yeah, poking around online, I see your numbers generally supported. It doesn't change the point I was making, that singling out Islam as having a monopoly on barbarity is not really supportable.

Also, I neglected to point out in my previous post his overeliance on tu quoque arguments.

It wasn't my intent to change your point. Rather to underline it. And that's done in a better way when the real facts and numbers lie on the table. The real barbarity, as I pointed out, doesn't lie in numbers, it lies in the procedure. We have detailed transcripts of certain trials. We also have detailed descriptions of the executions themselves. So, to only take one example, in Munich in the year 1600, a family of four was killed. The mothers breasts were cut off while still alive and - literal description from the text - slapped against her childrens faces. Ultimately they all were burnt at the stake. But not before their legs and arms were broken. In another example at roughly the same time, the 12 year old son of a "witcher" found christ while being incarcerated. His reward was to be baptized and to be strangled before being burned. There were even babies killed for demonic possession.

So barbarism isn't the question here. It's simply sticking to the facts rather than to something Sagan wanted to believe. The facts are gruesome enough to make the case for an equal amount of barbarity.

(March 25, 2015 at 12:34 pm)abaris Wrote: So barbarism isn't the question here. It's simply sticking to the facts rather than to something Sagan wanted to believe. The facts are gruesome enough to make the case for an equal amount of barbarity.

Yes, I know, which is why I went looking, saw that I was wrong, and said as much.

(March 25, 2015 at 12:53 pm)Parkers Tan Wrote: Yes, I know, which is why I went looking, saw that I was wrong, and said as much.

And just for the record. I didn't want to call you out on that. I just saw that the Sagan-quote started to take a foothold and wanted to counter that before the other side cries foul.

It's all good, Abs. Being corrected is a good thing (if sometimes uncomfortable ), in my mind; it steers me closer to what is true, and it's appreciated.

(March 25, 2015 at 2:34 am)Parkers Tan Wrote: By the way, are you an academic historian? Just curious.

I'm as much as an academic historian as Carl Sagan was. The answer is no, so to speak.

But what seperates me from Sagan is that I don't claim to be an authority regarding historical facts when I lack that formal education.
Instead I refer to other reliable sources and don't claim to be a valid source myself.

Quote:If you have to compare Christianity to Islam in order to make Christianity look good, well, gosh, I'm underwhelmed.

So you agree with me nonetheless about Islam.

(March 27, 2015 at 6:05 am)I Am Not A Human Being Wrote: So you agree with me nonetheless about Islam.

You're building strawman after strawman. Obviously you think Islam is that much worse than christianity, which is absurd. The only difference between radical islam and radical christianity is that right now a thin layer of society and laws are preventing radicals to act on their impulses. Pastors calling for the death of gays and abortion doctors should give your the right idea. Also the repeated attempts to sneak outright bible motivated legislation into lawmaking is on the same level as calling for Sharia law.