(March 13, 2015 at 4:12 am)Smaug Wrote: To me they aren't going turn to atheism or even liberal Islam as long as average life level is so low.

Exactly. As I said on page 1. When they have first world problems, they will start to question religion.

(March 9, 2015 at 3:43 pm)TheMessiah Wrote: It's a bold question, I know. But let's talk long term; in 100 years time, or even 500 years, realistically, how Atheistic would the Middle-East be?

I think we are starting to see the beginning stages of their own Enlightenment Period in certain parts of the middle-east, at least among younger people. However, we probably won't see any significant paradigm shift regarding religious beliefs for many years. Forget about Athiesm, there are bigger problems that need to be addressed before we will even see any substantial decrease in religious fundamentalism. Severe economic disparity is one of the largest problems, along with a lack of proper education for many people. Both create a breeding ground for religious fundamentalism.

Basic rights and education for women would be one starting point.

I bet there is enough atheists around there who are utterly sick of it all, and if it wasn't for the constant threat to keep quiet I bet they could form a good group.

OK so that's just a wild guess. I'm being optimistic.

(March 9, 2015 at 7:59 pm)Jenny A Wrote: The Middle East is the epicenter of religious craziness: Jewish, Christian, and Islamic.

...Christian? In the Middle East Christianity is a declining minority without an independant state. They're not causing any "trouble" if that's what you mean.
It's more like ME Christians being the targets of persecutions.

(March 24, 2015 at 7:32 pm)I Am Not A Human Being Wrote:

(March 9, 2015 at 7:59 pm)Jenny A Wrote: The Middle East is the epicenter of religious craziness: Jewish, Christian, and Islamic.

...Christian? In the Middle East Christianity is a declining minority without an independant state. They're not causing any "trouble" if that's what you mean.
It's more like ME Christians being the targets of persecutions.

I am pretty sure she is referring to Copts, who have been involved in violence frequently. Yes, they are a minority so if you want to see the same violence and oppression in a country where Christianity is the predominant religion, you can take a look at places like Uganda, Papua New Guinea, etc...

(March 24, 2015 at 7:45 pm)abentwookie Wrote:

(March 24, 2015 at 7:32 pm)I Am Not A Human Being Wrote: ...Christian? In the Middle East Christianity is a declining minority without an independant state. They're not causing any "trouble" if that's what you mean.
It's more like ME Christians being the targets of persecutions.

I am pretty sure she is referring to Copts, who have been involved in violence frequently. Yes, they are a minority so if you want to see the same violence and oppression in a country where Christianity is the predominant religion, you can take a look at places like Uganda, Papua New Guinea, etc...

The worst Christian "theocracy" is not nearly as bad as the average Islamic theocracy.

(March 24, 2015 at 7:45 pm)abentwookie Wrote:

(March 24, 2015 at 7:32 pm)I Am Not A Human Being Wrote: ...Christian? In the Middle East Christianity is a declining minority without an independant state. They're not causing any "trouble" if that's what you mean.
It's more like ME Christians being the targets of persecutions.

I am pretty sure she is referring to Copts, who have been involved in violence frequently.

It's the Coptic Egyptians who are the targets of Islamist violence. This anti-Christian trend has become a lot more frequent since the Muslim Brotherhood seized power in Egypt.

And yes, Copts are understandably angry at the widespread discrimination, church bombings and mob violence towards their community which isn't getting enough police protection.

That's why many Coptic Egyptians take to the streets to demonstrate. So I don't see why she's trying to depict Christians in the Middle East as adding to the problem of "religious craziness" when all they're doing is defending their human rights.

Quote:Yes, they are a minority so if you want to see the same violence and oppression in a country where Christianity is the predominant religion, you can take a look at places like Uganda, Papua New Guinea, etc...

Those places aren't in the ME so your point is irrelevant.

(March 24, 2015 at 8:00 pm)Dystopia Wrote:

(March 24, 2015 at 7:45 pm)abentwookie Wrote: I am pretty sure she is referring to Copts, who have been involved in violence frequently. Yes, they are a minority so if you want to see the same violence and oppression in a country where Christianity is the predominant religion, you can take a look at places like Uganda, Papua New Guinea, etc...

The worst Christian "theocracy" is not nearly as bad as the average Islamic theocracy.

... any more.

(March 24, 2015 at 8:00 pm)Dystopia Wrote:

(March 24, 2015 at 7:45 pm)abentwookie Wrote: I am pretty sure she is referring to Copts, who have been involved in violence frequently. Yes, they are a minority so if you want to see the same violence and oppression in a country where Christianity is the predominant religion, you can take a look at places like Uganda, Papua New Guinea, etc...

The worst Christian "theocracy" is not nearly as bad as the average Islamic theocracy.

Are we talking about historically or present day? If it is the former, then I could make a strong argument against that statement. If it is the latter, I could still argue the point. Not that it really matters. Both are horrible and dismissing one because the other may be worse is just a fallacy of relative privation. In places like Uganda, LGBT people are thrown in jail and often attacked just for being who they are. They even originally wanted to have them executed. And in PNG women are often still burned alive because Christians there think "witches" are real. The problem isn't so much the religions themselves. They are just a symptom of the underlying issues. We have seen that Christianity and Islam can both be civilized to an extent when they exist in countries with secular laws. safety nets for the poor and proper education systems. However, when you put either of them in a country with rampant poverty, minimal access to education and a government that leans heavily toward being a theocracy, you get the same barbaric and oppressive behavior in both religions.

---

(March 24, 2015 at 8:02 pm)I Am Not A Human Being Wrote: It's the Coptic Egyptians who are the targets of Islamist violence. This anti-Christian trend has become a lot more frequent since the Muslim Brotherhood seized power in Egypt.

At the moment, yes. However, they have also committed their share of violence. Their hands aren't clean.

Quote:And yes, Copts are understandably angry at the widespread discrimination, church bombings and mob violence towards their community which isn't getting enough police protection.

Does that excuse their own violence?

Quote:Those places aren't in the ME so your point is irrelevant.

So Christian violence only counts in the middle-east? Well, since she specifically said the ME, I suppose that is a fair point. Let's not pretend that it doesn't exist elsewhere though.