(March 28, 2015 at 3:14 am)Nestor Wrote:

(March 28, 2015 at 3:07 am)Wyrd of Gawd Wrote: Actually the Bible and the Koran were written about the same time.  The books of the Bible might have been written much earlier but they were not compiled into a single book until the English did it as a gift to the Pope.  Some say that Jerome did it much earlier but that's just to make the myth more believable.

Wrong on all accounts.
http://codexsinaiticus.org
Written over 1,600 years ago, it contains the complete New Testament and about half of the Old Testament and Apocrypha (from the Septuagint).

Correct, but, even it (and the Codex Vaticanus) have additions and subtractions from later versions suggesting that far from being the word of fucking 'god' this shit was constantly cobbled together by men.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codex_Vaticanus

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codex_Sinaiticus

(April 3, 2015 at 11:45 am)MysticKnight Wrote: I understand you don't agree with it, and don't acknowledge it, but all I'm saying is that doesn't prove there is no proof for God or that praise and it's nature is not a  proof for God and his greatness.

Lets see if I can clarify. If I were to praise Sauron (from lord of the rings), is that proof the Sauron is real? Of course not. Why isn't it real? Because praise can be given to anything including things that don't exist. That is why giving praise to god is NOT proof of god's existence.

(April 3, 2015 at 12:26 pm)Surgenator Wrote:

(April 3, 2015 at 11:45 am)MysticKnight Wrote: I understand you don't agree with it, and don't acknowledge it, but all I'm saying is that doesn't prove there is no proof for God or that praise and it's nature is not a  proof for God and his greatness.

Lets see if I can clarify. If I were to praise Sauron (from lord of the rings), is that proof the Sauron is real? Of course not. Why isn't it real? Because praise can be given to anything including things that don't exist. That is why giving praise to god is NOT proof of god's existence.

See what I meant here: Post 33

I don't think you got the point at all. 

First of all, it's not a matter of caring. It's a matter of scale. The universe is 13.5 billion years old. We existed for maybe 100K of that. The universe includes hundreds of billions of galaxies. We occupy a microscopic spec of one. 

It's not all about us. 

Second, why is your god so insecure that he even wants, never mind needs, our worship and love? The Islamo-Christian view of God is a deeply insecure but powerful being that can create a universe but needs validation from comparitively microscopic beings. It's kind of touching in a strange way but not believable. I can understand why a religion would create a god like this but not why God would actually be like this. 

Third, there's no reason to believe in this personal god. Stories of miracles are either not proven to be true or proven not to be true. We live in a natural universe governed by predictable laws and best understood by science and reason. Theists come up with all manner of excuses for this. Catholics say it's "free will". Some Protestants say "mysterious ways". Muslims often say "it's a test". Occam's Razor says it's exactly what it looks like: the reason there doesn't seem to be a personal god is because there is not a personal god. 

Fourth, if God WERE to create a religion, there would be one (1) religion, one (1) holy book and that holy book, authored by the Creator, would contain knowledge, wisdom and morality that would astound people even today. This holy book would have been published all over the world, even before these cultures had any contact with each other. Instead, we see different religions with different holy books as they arise from different cultures and the only way they spread is by human efforts. 

The "morality" of these religions focus on the "evils" of victimless crimes such as blasphemy, apostasy and idolatry while exhalting useless "virtues" such as rituals and adherence to dietary taboos. Since human morality has progressed since the authoring of these books, the values often seem barbaric and backward to modern sensibilities. 

Fifth, the absence of a true religion does not create a meaningless or amoral existence. We are community animals and we have a sense of empathy and conscience for one another. We form civilizations and make laws that help to alleviate conflict and suffering. We don't always get it right but we're getting better. Barbaric practices that used to be commonplace, such as slavery or wars of aggression, once sacred, then defended, then debated, are now condemned by civilized society and we're seeking to eliminate them. We are not just evolving biologically but also morally and intellectually. 

Building upon the foundation that we are given, seeking in our own small way to make the universe a little better than when we found it, is purpose enough. 

(April 3, 2015 at 12:34 pm)DeistPaladin Wrote: I don't think you got the point at all. 

First of all, it's not a matter of caring. It's a matter of scale. The universe is 13.5 billion years old. We existed for maybe 100K of that. The universe includes hundreds of billions of galaxies. We occupy a microscopic spec of one. 

So we should be occupying a bunch of galaxies to be significant?

I don't understand the point of this.

Quote:It's not all about us. 

I don't believe it is all about us. I believe God creates infinite universes, and in these universes, there is sentient life in different galaxies. I believe God creates infinite souls.

Quote:Second, why is your god so insecure that he even wants, never mind needs, our worship and love? The Islamo-Christian view of God is a deeply insecure but powerful being that can create a universe but needs validation from comparitively microscopic beings. It's kind of touching in a strange way but not believable. I can understand why a religion would create a god like this but not why God would actually be like this. 

That's a straw man. God doesn't gain or lose anything from our worship and love, but we gain something, and if we neglect it, we are in a state of corruption. God created us with a link to him, and if we neglect that link, we are doing injustice and being ungrateful to a huge favor. He sends Prophets to remind people and re-establish the link.

Quote:Third, there's no reason to believe in this personal god. Stories of miracles are either not proven to be true or proven not to be true. We live in a natural universe governed by predictable laws and best understood by science and reason. Theists come up with all manner of excuses for this. Catholics say it's "free will". Some Protestants say "mysterious ways". Muslims often say "it's a test". Occam's Razor says it's exactly what it looks like: the reason there doesn't seem to be a personal god is because there is not a personal god. 

I think the laws of the universe as constantly imposed by God. I don't think anything by it's nature just has laws innate in it. These laws God has put upon everything and is constantly establishing them. Without God, there would be no laws. 

It's God that keeps the bird in the air and the whole universe in place, by constantly maintaining the universe in the way he does. Given that is the case, he can always break laws and cause miracles.

Quote:Fourth, if God WERE to create a religion, there would be one (1) religion, one (1) holy book and that holy book, authored by the Creator, would contain knowledge, wisdom and morality that would astound people even today.

How do you know this about God and people? How do you know God would make sure only to have one holy book in the world forcing all people not to have their own holy books and how do you know if he written a holy book with exalted wisdom and a nature beyond human capability, that all would acknowledge it?

Quote:This holy book would have been published all over the world, even before these cultures had any contact with each other. Instead, we see different religions with different holy books as they arise from different cultures and the only way they spread is by human efforts. 

So would he force all people to keep to the holy book, and follow it? What if they distort it, God would force the people not to do that? Why do you say this?

Quote:The "morality" of these religions focus on the "evils" of victimless crimes such as blasphemy, apostasy and idolatry while exhalting useless "virtues" such as rituals and adherence to dietary taboos. Since human morality has progressed since the authoring of these books, the values often seem barbaric and backward to modern sensibilities. 

Most humans don't see these things as barbaric and backward. It's a minority that does. 

Quote:Fifth, the absence of a true religion does not create a meaningless or amoral existence. We are community animals and we have a sense of empathy and conscience for one another. We form civilizations and make laws that help to alleviate conflict and suffering. We don't always get it right but we're getting better. Barbaric practices that used to be commonplace, such as slavery or wars of aggression, once sacred, then defended, then debated, are now condemned by civilized society and we're seeking to eliminate them. We are not just evolving biologically but also morally and intellectually. 

Advancement in some areas doesn't mean we advancing in all areas. Another thing is this is only this century. What about in the past. Did people not need guidance in the past when there is bunch of superstition and false religions?

Quote:Building upon the foundation that we are given, seeking in our own small way to make the universe a little better than when we found it, is purpose enough. 

I disagree. The relationship with God and linking to him, is much higher then just making the world a little bit better.   But this takes a lover to understand. When you are in love, that beloved is so central to you. The problem again Deism is not in love with the Divine. It doesn't understand intimacy with God and neither does it understand the close friends of God relationship to other humans.

(April 3, 2015 at 12:34 pm)MysticKnight Wrote:

(April 3, 2015 at 12:26 pm)Surgenator Wrote: Lets see if I can clarify. If I were to praise Sauron (from lord of the rings), is that proof the Sauron is real? Of course not. Why isn't it real? Because praise can be given to anything including things that don't exist. That is why giving praise to god is NOT proof of god's existence.

See what I meant here: Post 33

That post asserts extra attributes of praise that are not demonstrated or justified. For example, "praise is in fact light from God" and "praise in ourselves and the knowledge of praise in ourselves is of the signs of God." These are asserted not justified. So there is no reason for me to accept such a bias definition of praise.

(April 3, 2015 at 10:42 am)MysticKnight Wrote: I'm saying the emphasis on the following the chosen ones, and appointing a set of chosen ones to follow a long with the oneness of God, and showing their exalted station and praiseworthy path, is not found anywhere else but in Quran or religions that are offshoots of the Quran. I posted these verses to show how much it's been emphasized, unlike other holy books that are not offshoots of Islam.

When I was talking about wisdom, I'm talking about specifically that wisdom. There is many wisdoms in Quran, but this is the wisdom that stands out for me.

My recollection from reading the wikipedia article yesterday is that these chosen ones were a bloodline with about a dozen generations, and the last chosen one disappeared from history 1000 years ago. So if using these chosen ones was so wise, then why did God leave Islam without guidance for that last 1000 years?

I know Christianity probably looks ridiculous to people who did not grow-up in Christian cultures, but Islam looks ridiculous to me. I like most of the Muslims I have met on forums, but it's hard to understand what you guys see in the Quran.

Here is a quote from the beginning of the Bhagavad Gita that I liked. I think this is just as wise as anything I have heard from the Quran, and it is only from the first few pages that I have read so far.

As background, the prince Arjana is despondent because he is about to do battle with friends and family in a civil war, so Krishna says the following:

http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/gita/bg02.htm

MysticKnight states that he and other islamo's have have a "direct link" to god. I wonder if he could tell us what information travels along that link and what part of our multi-cellular body has the privilege to be so connected?

He seems to describe and ecstasy from worshiping his god, but he doesn't well describe what is the basis for such ecstasy.

What does he receive in return for obeying his god that the followers of Zeus didn't for obeying their god?

(April 3, 2015 at 12:57 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: God doesn't gain or lose anything from our worship and love, but we gain something, and if we neglect it, we are in a state of corruption. God created us with a link to him, and if we neglect that link, we are doing injustice and being ungrateful to a huge favor. He sends Prophets to remind people and re-establish the link.

(April 3, 2015 at 12:57 pm)MysticKnight Wrote:

(April 3, 2015 at 12:34 pm)DeistPaladin Wrote: I don't think you got the point at all. 

First of all, it's not a matter of caring. It's a matter of scale. The universe is 13.5 billion years old. We existed for maybe 100K of that. The universe includes hundreds of billions of galaxies. We occupy a microscopic spec of one. 

So we should be occupying a bunch of galaxies to be significant?

I don't understand the point of this.

Quote:It's not all about us. 

I don't believe it is all about us. I believe God creates infinite universes, and in these universes, there is sentient life in different galaxies. I believe God creates infinite souls.

Quote:Second, why is your god so insecure that he even wants, never mind needs, our worship and love? The Islamo-Christian view of God is a deeply insecure but powerful being that can create a universe but needs validation from comparitively microscopic beings. It's kind of touching in a strange way but not believable. I can understand why a religion would create a god like this but not why God would actually be like this. 

That's a straw man. God doesn't gain or lose anything from our worship and love, but we gain something, and if we neglect it, we are in a state of corruption. God created us with a link to him, and if we neglect that link, we are doing injustice and being ungrateful to a huge favor. He sends Prophets to remind people and re-establish the link.

Quote:Third, there's no reason to believe in this personal god. Stories of miracles are either not proven to be true or proven not to be true. We live in a natural universe governed by predictable laws and best understood by science and reason. Theists come up with all manner of excuses for this. Catholics say it's "free will". Some Protestants say "mysterious ways". Muslims often say "it's a test". Occam's Razor says it's exactly what it looks like: the reason there doesn't seem to be a personal god is because there is not a personal god. 

I think the laws of the universe as constantly imposed by God. I don't think anything by it's nature just has laws innate in it. These laws God has put upon everything and is constantly establishing them. Without God, there would be no laws. 

It's God that keeps the bird in the air and the whole universe in place, by constantly maintaining the universe in the way he does. Given that is the case, he can always break laws and cause miracles.

Quote:Fourth, if God WERE to create a religion, there would be one (1) religion, one (1) holy book and that holy book, authored by the Creator, would contain knowledge, wisdom and morality that would astound people even today.

How do you know this about God and people? How do you know God would make sure only to have one holy book in the world forcing all people not to have their own holy books and how do you know if he written a holy book with exalted wisdom and a nature beyond human capability, that all would acknowledge it?

Quote:This holy book would have been published all over the world, even before these cultures had any contact with each other. Instead, we see different religions with different holy books as they arise from different cultures and the only way they spread is by human efforts. 

So would he force all people to keep to the holy book, and follow it? What if they distort it, God would force the people not to do that? Why do you say this?

Quote:The "morality" of these religions focus on the "evils" of victimless crimes such as blasphemy, apostasy and idolatry while exhalting useless "virtues" such as rituals and adherence to dietary taboos. Since human morality has progressed since the authoring of these books, the values often seem barbaric and backward to modern sensibilities. 

Most humans don't see these things as barbaric and backward. It's a minority that does. 

Quote:Fifth, the absence of a true religion does not create a meaningless or amoral existence. We are community animals and we have a sense of empathy and conscience for one another. We form civilizations and make laws that help to alleviate conflict and suffering. We don't always get it right but we're getting better. Barbaric practices that used to be commonplace, such as slavery or wars of aggression, once sacred, then defended, then debated, are now condemned by civilized society and we're seeking to eliminate them. We are not just evolving biologically but also morally and intellectually. 

Advancement in some areas doesn't mean we advancing in all areas. Another thing is this is only this century. What about in the past. Did people not need guidance in the past when there is bunch of superstition and false religions?

Quote:Building upon the foundation that we are given, seeking in our own small way to make the universe a little better than when we found it, is purpose enough. 

I disagree. The relationship with God and linking to him, is much higher then just making the world a little bit better.   But this takes a lover to understand. When you are in love, that beloved is so central to you. The problem again Deism is not in love with the Divine. It doesn't understand intimacy with God and neither does it understand the close friends of God relationship to other humans.

---

Great, I typed out an entire reply and it got obliterated when I posted. 


No idea what happened.