(May 2, 2015 at 4:26 am)downbeatplumb Wrote: I don't know, if the scots realise they can't get power by voting SNP they will have to vote Labour next time. Miliband may be playing the long game.

Yeah that might be Miliband's thoughts. It's a huge gamble though because Labour will become even more hated. There's the perception up here that Labour betrayed Scotland because they cosied up to the Tories in the referendum and letting the Tories in for another 5 years would reinforce that perception. It would have been different if Labour had distanced themselves from the Tories, came up with their own proposals for staying in the union and also promised to implement those proposals if they were voted in next time.

I've always considered myself a socialist and that is precisely the reason I shall not be voting Labour again. Instead I'm going to vote UKIP, not because I agree with most of their policies, simply because I want us to get out of Europe. And once we've done that I'll try to find someone that better represents my views.

I think labour and Tories are just saying whatever they think will win those undecided votes at this stage. The other parties can afford to be more honest.

(May 2, 2015 at 4:52 am)jesus_wept Wrote: I've always considered myself a socialist and that is precisely the reason I shall not be voting Labour again. Instead I'm going to vote UKIP, not because I agree with most of their policies, simply because I want us to get out of Europe. And once we've done that I'll try to find someone that better represents my views.

Why do you want us out of Europe?

I have never seen any cogent arguments for this position that stood up to scrutiny.

UKIP is not about Europe, it's just a means for big business to exploit us further by removing EU protection.


http://www.organizedrage.com/2014/07/the...-come.html

Quote:While David Cameron talks a great deal about the need for the EU to reform, he is less forthcoming about what type of reform he is proposing and who will be its main beneficiary. If you ask ordinary voters what they most dislike about the EU three points are continuously raised. The failure to ask the EU electorate when the commission proposes to enlarge the union by inviting another nation state to join. The Commission's refusal to accept the results of EU referendums until they get a result which is to their liking and finally the democratic deficit which lays at the heart of the EU.

Quote:So what does Cameron wish to reform and not only Cameron but also Nigel Farage and his troupe of petty bourgeois Thatcherites. They have one piece of EU legislation above all others within their sights, the Working Time Directive. It gives EU workers the right to a minimum number of holidays each year, rest breaks, and at least 11 hours off in any 24 hours; it also restricts excessive night work; and provides for a day off after a weeks work, and the legal right to refuse to work no more than 48 hours per week.

Today we live in a world in which trade union membership is decreasing by the day, with employers resorting to a methodology which was first established in the 19th century. Any whiff of joining or organising a trade union on site and the workers involved will be sacked. Thus this single piece of legislation is all the more important as it protects millions of workers from exploitative employers, big and small. Profit, more profit is the mantra of our age but none of it trickles down to the workers on the shop floor.

The UK is not known as Food-bank Britain for nothing, its because far to many workers are on starvation wages and zero hours contracts.

Is it a crime for workers not to have to work more than 48 hours a week? What is wrong with having 20 days paid holiday a year? Should workers not be protected from exploitative employers?

Working excessive hours is cited as a major cause of family breakdowns and illnesses like stress, depression, alcoholism and accidents at work, the whole purpose of the directive is to protect people's health and safety at work, something which is anathema to neo liberals like Cameron.

(May 2, 2015 at 5:32 am)downbeatplumb Wrote:

(May 2, 2015 at 4:52 am)jesus_wept Wrote: I've always considered myself a socialist and that is precisely the reason I shall not be voting Labour again. Instead I'm going to vote UKIP, not because I agree with most of their policies, simply because I want us to get out of Europe. And once we've done that I'll try to find someone that better represents my views.

Why do you want us out of Europe? I have never seen any cogent arguments for this position that stood up to scrutiny.

I dont really see how being in Europe has benefited us, all its really done (IMO) is give us an excess of cheap labour which has bought down wages and pushed house prices up. I also dont think we need the EU to tell us what to do, it's quite simple really.

The main reason for Europe is that it allows for free trade and free movement while making sure that the member states have a default minimum quality of life (e.g. working time directive, the European court of human rights etc).

The main question should be, do you trust Westminster to provide the same minimum quality of life enforced by the EU? I don't. I'd trust an independent Scotland but an independent Scotland would remain part of the EU anyway.

I also don't think that you can blame house prices solely on immigration. There is a huge demographic called the Baby boomers who have used buy to let to fund their pensions. This was exacerbated by Gordon Brown raiding the pensions pot using taxes. Tax second homes properly and stop propping up house prices and let's see if there is still a housing shortage.

It's too easy to put all the blame on one cause when things happen for multiple reasons.

(May 2, 2015 at 5:47 am)jesus_wept Wrote:

(May 2, 2015 at 5:32 am)downbeatplumb Wrote:  Why do you want us out of Europe? I have never seen any cogent arguments for this position that stood up to scrutiny.

I dont really see how being in Europe has benefited us, all its really done (IMO) is give us an excess of cheap labour which has bought down wages and pushed house prices up. I also dont think we need the EU to tell us what to do, it's quite simple really.

No it's complex.

House prices were pushed up by the tories de-reglating the finance industry allowing more years to count towards mortgages increasing inflationary pressure and by selling off the social housing reserves, nothing to do with immigrants.

"cheap labour" this is a complaint against capitalism and how markets operate rather than foreign labour as such.

My personal preference is for greater integration with Europe and I do not understand the little England mindset that I encounter in people like my mother in law who wants out of Europe because Brussels.

The only way to play with the big boys is to be part of a big block that can oppose America and China.

If we leave the EU we become an irrelevance on the world stage.

We have no industrial base. our Navy can't project power because we lack aircraft carriers we could be safely ignored.

(May 2, 2015 at 6:10 am)I_am_not_mafia Wrote: The main reason for Europe is that it allows for free trade and free movement while making sure that the member states have a default minimum quality of life (e.g. working time directive, the European court of human rights etc).

The main question should be, do you trust Westminster to provide the same minimum quality of life enforced by the EU? I don't. I'd trust an independent Scotland but an independent Scotland would remain part of the EU anyway.

I also don't think that you can blame house prices solely on immigration. There is a huge demographic called the Baby boomers who have used buy to let to fund their pensions. This was exacerbated by Gordon Brown raiding the pensions pot using taxes. Tax second homes properly and stop propping up house prices and let's see if there is still a housing shortage.

It's too easy to put all the blame on one cause when things happen for multiple reasons.

The truth is I dont trust either of them to guarantee a decent quality of life, but I think we've got a better chance of Westminster taking notice of us than the European Parliament.

And I haven't blamed house prices solely on immigration, it's just one reason why I want us to leave Europe. We let in hundreds of thousands of people a year and they have to live somewhere, hence house prices go up because we simply haven't got enough to go round. Then we have the environmental issue of having to build all over our greenbelt land.

---

(May 2, 2015 at 6:17 am)downbeatplumb Wrote:

(May 2, 2015 at 5:47 am)jesus_wept Wrote: I dont really see how being in Europe has benefited us, all its really done (IMO) is give us an excess of cheap labour which has bought down wages and pushed house prices up. I also dont think we need the EU to tell us what to do, it's quite simple really.

No it's complex.

House prices were pushed up by the tories de-reglating the finance industry allowing more years to count towards mortgages increasing inflationary pressure and by selling off the social housing reserves, nothing to do with immigrants.

"cheap labour" this is a complaint against capitalism and how markets operate rather than foreign labour as such.

My personal preference is for greater integration with Europe and I do not understand the little England mindset that I encounter in people like my mother in law who wants out of Europe because Brussels.

The only way to play with the big boys is to be part of a big block that can oppose America and China.

If we leave the EU we become an irrelevance on the world stage.

We have no industrial base. our Navy can't project power because we lack aircraft carriers we could be safely ignored.

We're already an irrelevance on the world stage and are largely ignored.

(May 2, 2015 at 6:20 am)jesus_wept Wrote: We're already an irrelevance on the world stage and are largely ignored.

I actually think Britain would be a much better place if the politicians accepted this.