From the Koran Burning Thread:

(September 9, 2010 at 6:50 pm)annatar Wrote: Maybe a time will come and most of the muslims will say that quran is not literal Even today there are a lot of apologists. (We call them light muslims in Turkey..)

I've wondered about that and perhaps this should be the topic of a new thread in the Islam section.

When this nut pastor was asked how he would feel if someone burned a Bible, he said he would "pray for them" but that was all. It got me thinking, this is not the reaction you would have gotten from Christians even as lately as 500 years ago.

If you went back to that time and publicly burned a Bible in either Protestant or Catholic territory, I'm guessing you'd soon find yourself chained to a stake in the midst of your own bonfire. The Muslim practice of beheading seems merciful in comparison. We all know Christianity had its cruel and violent past (as the Bible itself is really a cruel book). It's current incarnation is watered down by modernity and science.

Is there any hope that Islam might be similarly domesticated by modernity, as Christianity has been?

My hope is based on history, that there was a time when the situation was reversed. At one time, Christian leaders ruled their world with the same kind of power and held Europe in the Dark Ages. Meanwhile, a more moderate flavor of Islam allowed their world to keep alive the flame of civilization.

The challenge is how this moderate form of Islam can get around their own scripture. Liberal Christians have the "out" of saying "Meh, Jesus died for that" and dismiss the verses they don't like. Even gay-friendly churches are known to do this.

How do they do it in Turkey or how might such an Islam take root in the rest of the Islamic world?

(September 10, 2010 at 9:05 am)DeistPaladin Wrote:

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From the Koran Burning Thread:

(September 9, 2010 at 6:50 pm)annatar Wrote: Maybe a time will come and most of the muslims will say that quran is not literal Even today there are a lot of apologists. (We call them light muslims in Turkey..)

I've wondered about that and perhaps this should be the topic of a new thread in the Islam section.

When this nut pastor was asked how he would feel if someone burned a Bible, he said he would "pray for them" but that was all. It got me thinking, this is not the reaction you would have gotten from Christians even as lately as 500 years ago.

If you went back to that time and publicly burned a Bible in either Protestant or Catholic territory, I'm guessing you'd soon find yourself chained to a stake in the midst of your own bonfire. The Muslim practice of beheading seems merciful in comparison. We all know Christianity had its cruel and violent past (as the Bible itself is really a cruel book). It's current incarnation is watered down by modernity and science.

Is there any hope that Islam might be similarly domesticated by modernity, as Christianity has been?

My hope is based on history, that there was a time when the situation was reversed. At one time, Christian leaders ruled their world with the same kind of power and held Europe in the Dark Ages. Meanwhile, a more moderate flavor of Islam allowed their world to keep alive the flame of civilization.

The challenge is how this moderate form of Islam can get around their own scripture. Liberal Christians have the "out" of saying "Meh, Jesus died for that" and dismiss the verses they don't like. Even gay-friendly churches are known to do this.

How do they do it in Turkey or how might such an Islam take root in the rest of the Islamic world?

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My dentist is actually a Muslim from Turkey. She is a "light" Muslim. She does not follow the Koran strictly. I would describe it as I would describe the majority of Christians. They worship on holidays and loosely follow their religion and then they don't give a shit for the rest of the time being. Like my family, they still say they believe although they rarely show it.

Quote:Is there any hope that Islam might be similarly domesticated by modernity, as Christianity has been?

Yes, but.


The "but" comes in this observation by Thomas Jefferson. In every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection to his own.

We see virtual theocracies in much of the muslim world with both preachers and rulers conspiring to use religion to oppress the commons. What is needed is a French or Russian style revolution in which the priests are guillotined along with the autocrats.

Sadly, I see no signs of this. The poorer they are and the stupider they are the more closely they cling to their religion.....just like in the U.S.

This is my problem with organised religion, faith isn't the issue, it's organised mass religion. I see no reason to believe in any old book as the word of God, but those who do create a group banded together by a common idea, and when that idea is hijacked and those who hijack it get into a position of power within the religion the "moderates" just seem to go along with it and allow these extremists to gain power that effect people outside the belief system and who want nothing to do with religion and all the ills it brings. All evil needs to flourish is for good people to stand by and do nothing. It happened in the past with Christianity, it happened in Nazi Germany, it happened with Stalin in Soviet Russia and im sure it has happened in countless other points in history where people bound by a common idea or ideal have allowed it to be hijacked and used as a weapon of power and evil that has effected all types of people. So called "moderate" Muslims are the ones who need to stand up and fight the extremists, it's just as much their mess as it was for "moderate" Christians in the past.

You are right in saying it was Christianity in the past who were in the wrong for the way they used their religion, and they still do to an extent now but to their credit in large parts (Note: far from all) of their community they have changed their beliefs and ideals to fit around modern socioty...Gay rights and fairer treatment of women are the two that come to mind. But with Islam I am becoming more and more aware that even the "moderates" have beliefs that are written in stone in the Koran that are incompatible with the way most civilised people wish to live (at least with the life I wish to live). Perhaps due to their seeming unwillingness to not take their book literally (as they see it as the exact word of god), a distinction a fair few Christians allow.

Most "Christian countries" have done well in separating governments/ruling bodies from religion. The same can't be said for Islam. They have countries and communities run on the politicised version of their religion to the word. And as long as that's the case, and the "moderates" don't speak up and claim their religion for themselves there are going to be issues of division and conflict the world over.

Just my thoughts on the matter.

Well thats really an interesting question.
I believe in order to understand why christians are tolerant now, you should ask yourself when did christians started to became more tolerant?
What has changed? Bible is still the same bible.
It's started with renaissance, when common people became wealthier. They started to be intrested in arts and music.
They started to see how beatiful the world is. They didn't needed an afterlife 'so badly' anymore.
Its not about religion. its about economical and intellectual level of the people who believe in it. I believe this is the main reason of islamic violance..
You can see this in Turkey very clearly.

People who live in wealthy cities like istanbul, ankara, or izmir are more tolerant than people who live in poor cities like sivas or konya..

Most of the people in Turkey usually doesn't care about religion. In fact they dont even read the quran. A recent survey shows that %95 of turkish muslims haven't read quran in their life..
It has two different effects,
poor and ignorant people firmly hold on to islam and follow the people whom they trust without questioning.
wealthy and intellectual people believe that islam is a peaceful religion and that terrorists and extremists are misunderstanding islam. These people are what we call Light muslims.. And can be a role model for a moderate islam...
Of course its not a good thing. But It's at least better than psycho muslims who would kill infidels without hesitation. And its equal to today's christians.. So I believe when their economical status improved, muslims will be more tolerant.

Among Muslim countries, Turkey is more tolerant than most. Its becouse We are not ruled by sharia and We have a secular constitution. But even here religious people sometimes do really horrible stuff.
Sivas massacre was one of the shameful and horrid example of their intolerance and violence..
Shamefully Islamic movement seems to increased their effectiveness nowadays.Especially by the acts of our conservative goverment. But I believe(and I hope) we will get rid of those bigots in the next elections..

(September 10, 2010 at 6:03 pm)annatar Wrote: Well thats really an interesting question.
I believe in order to understand why christians are tolerant now, you should ask yourself when did christians started to became more tolerant?

Yes that's a good question, when did christians become more tolerant? Was it during the renaissance when the european kingdoms where still invading jerusalem and syria and massacring anybody who wasn't a white christian? Or was it after that when the europeans colonised africa and the americas, enslaving the natives and butchering anybody who showed resistance? Was it during the american civil war, when the yankees offered black slaves freedom in exchange for using them as human shields in their battles? Or was it after the civil war when blacks were lynched and spat on by the KKK and yankees alike?

When exactly did christians become tolerant?

From a historical perspective from the brutal enforcement of christianity by the Romans up until today and no doubt for years still to come, christians have never been tolerant of anybody. They preach tolerance now only to put their opponents at ease before they stick the knife in, and they've always behaved worse than the savages and heretics they've condemned so readily.

(EDIT: as a matter of fact they dont preach tolerance only now, look at the missionaries in the colonies during that era of european colonisation- they walked into societies and told them, be passive, believe in god and all will be well- and look at these colonies today, they didnt develop into prospoerous nations, they developed into the oppressive vassal states that they are today. You're fooling yourself if you think christianization is anything other than voluntary suicide)

In contrast, it's been the muslims who have showed tolerance and compassion. During the crusades, for an obvious example, when the muslims reconquered cities and land they always showed tolerance and respect to the jews and christians they encountered. But when the christians retook the cities and land they butchered and raped jews and muslims regardless. It's one of the things that makes me angry today how the zionists in israel treat the palestinians, given the historical background where the muslims had always given respect to the jews, now that the jewish zionists are in power their genocidal attitude actions toward muslims are disgusting..


My point anyway.. is that the christian west has always lied and cheated and stolen and murdered and never had a shred of honour or respect for anyone. So why be surprised they continue to act this way today?

(September 10, 2010 at 6:03 pm)annatar Wrote: Well thats really an interesting question.
I believe in order to understand why christians are tolerant now, you should ask yourself when did christians started to became more tolerant?
What has changed? Bible is still the same bible.

I think Cerrone has an interesting point that it's not so much that Christianity became tolerant as much as it became increasingly constrained by civilization and modernity. They burn Harry Potter books now instead of heretics because they no longer are allowed to burn heretics. Muslim Imams are allowed to cut off the head of or hang apostates, gays, witches, etc because some places in the world still allow it.

The Bible is still the Bible but Christianity has been forced to accept that the world is round and not at the center of the universe. Many Christians are coming to realize that evolution is true (now official Catholic doctrine), the world is older than the literal reading of the Bible suggests (opinions vary on this) and homosexuality is innate (in recent years, the president of the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary issued a statement that homosexuality was part of the gay's nature but added that this is the result of "the fall" and a sin to be cured or suppressed).

The Bible hasn't changed but Christians are more likely to reinterpret certain passages or dismiss them as "metaphoric" than they were in ages past. Science has forced them to do so. They have no other option.

The violence is more restrained than it used to be. Christians today will say they'll "pray for" atheists, gays and Muslims where in the past they would simply execute such people. Of course, they won't refrain from discrimination, harassment and the occasional illegal action by some of the more zealous and violent believers, but at least now Christian attacks on its victims has to be done under-the-table.

The process was gradual, surprisingly so. I was shocked to find out the last burning-at-the-stake occurred toward the end of the 18th century, the heyday of the "Enlightenment". Apparently, the light hadn't reached all corners of Europe or its colonies. The Dark Ages died hard.

I think a critical turning point was the Reformation. This is not to say the Protestants were any better or worse than the Catholics. It is to say it broke the Pope's undisputed political power. Pope's were increasingly forced to rely on allies among the royals and nobles of Europe to keep hold of their flock. Secular leaders, kings and nobles, had more options and could bargain with the Pope instead of being forced to submit to him. Increased secular authority diminished Christianity's power.

Quote:Turkey is more tolerant than most. Its becouse We are not ruled by sharia and We have a secular constitution. But even here religious people sometimes do really horrible stuff.

When I visited Turkey a few years ago we were having a discussion with our guide about the truly magnificent way that English is taught in Turkey. He explained about how it was done but also mentioned that it caused some controversy because the more religious elements wanted Arabic taught so that people could read the koran "properly." (Apparently there is a belief that the book can't be translated properly?) Any comment on that Annatar?

@Minimalist
Well I have never heard anyone suggesting teaching arabic instead of english. Not even as a second langauge.
Most of the turkish people will see that as a threat to our secular republic. Actually its ridiculous its just a langauge but Most of us still have the fear of going back to the ottoman days when we were ruled by sharia..
Of course there are some people who would want that and more.(well thats why we have that fear.) But most of the people would be disturbed even the idea of teaching arabic in public schools.

Quote:Apparently there is a belief that the book can't be translated properly?

yes that is one of the excuse of our apologists. Each time when we show them a stupid or violent verse they say it must be a translation mistake you can't translate arabic correctly, you have to read it arabic, you cant understand it otherwise, It has so many meanings you cant translate!?!? this kind of bullcrap. It's rather funny but they believe in it..Thats why you can't make them accept that quran has lots of stupid and violent verses even if you show them...

Quote:the truly magnificent way that English is taught in Turkey.

Are you kidding me?Actually It's rather inadequate.. You can't possibly learn english in public schools. But its a general problem for our educational system...

@ DeistPaladin

Quote:I think Cerrone has an interesting point that it's not so much that Christianity became tolerant as much as it became increasingly constrained by civilization and modernity. They burn Harry Potter books now instead of heretics because they no longer are allowed to burn heretics. Muslim Imams are allowed to cut off the head of or hang apostates, gays, witches, etc because some places in the world still allow it.

Thats right but remember people who forbid these actions was also christian. There are christians and there are CHRISTIANS.. Its same for muslims. But here MUSLIMS are more then muslims..

(September 13, 2010 at 6:12 pm)annatar Wrote: @Minimalist
Well I have never heard anyone suggesting teaching arabic instead of english. Not even as a second langauge.
Most of the turkish people will see that as a threat to our secular republic. Actually its ridiculous its just a langauge but Most of us still have the fear of going back to the ottoman days when we were ruled by sharia..
Of course there are some people who would want that and more.(well thats why we have that fear.) But most of the people would be disturbed even the idea of teaching arabic in public schools.

Quote:Apparently there is a belief that the book can't be translated properly?

yes that is one of the excuse of our apologists. Each time when we show them a stupid or violent verse they say it must be a translation mistake you can't translate arabic correctly, you have to read it arabic, you cant understand it otherwise, It has so many meanings you cant translate!?!? this kind of bullcrap. It's rather funny but they believe in it..Thats why you can't make them accept that quran has lots of stupid and violent verses even if you show them...

Quote:the truly magnificent way that English is taught in Turkey.

Are you kidding me?It's actually rather inadequate.. You can't possibly learn english in public schools. But its a general problem for our educational system...

@ DeistPaladin

Quote:I think Cerrone has an interesting point that it's not so much that Christianity became tolerant as much as it became increasingly constrained by civilization and modernity. They burn Harry Potter books now instead of heretics because they no longer are allowed to burn heretics. Muslim Imams are allowed to cut off the head of or hang apostates, gays, witches, etc because some places in the world still allow it.

Thats right but remember people who forbid these actions was also christian. There are christians and there are CHRISTIANS.. Its same for muslims. But here MUSLIMS are more then muslims..

funny the muslims stole their laws from the christians, the christians from the jews, and the jews stole from the egyptian