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Quote:Favorable or not. It's extremely irrational. Intelligance is suppost to encourage reason not the opposite. If god sends people to hell simply because he feels like it, then he is not all loving.
The most intelligent beings are the most rational. If god is irrational, he is unintelligent.
You seem to be confusing rational behavior with rational thought.
Rational behavior is behavior that achieves a specific outcome. If a person wanted to eat a ham sandwich and he acquired a ham sandwich and ate it we would say he acted rationally. However, if he wanted to eat a ham sandwich but he acquired an umbrella and threw it in the ocean we would say he acted irrationally.
If a deity wanted to torture someone then it would indeed be rational behavior if it did so.
It is not related to rational thought at all.
Also, remember that my hypothetical situation was never contingent upon an all loving deity.
Finally, don't make the mistake of thinking love or compassion is dependent on rationality, or that rationality is dependent on love or compassion.
See my signature. Generally personal desire and power decide what happens in any situation. Thinking is merely a sometimes absent intermediary step.
Quote:Thank you for requesting further explanation.
You're welcome. Knowledge is a priceless gift to give and recieve I think.
Quote:You seem to be confusing rational behavior with rational thought.
Depends what you consider 'rational' I guess. I'll go further into it in a moment.
Quote:If a person wanted to eat a ham sandwich and he acquired a ham sandwich and ate it we would say he acted rationally.
Would it be rational behaviour if a cat who had been fully fed to continue chasing after birds despite already being full. It's not rational bevhaviour, it's instinctive behaviour.
Would it be rational behaviour if I had attacked a child because I could and wanted too? I guess it depends what you consider 'rational'. I doubt that anyone in the cort room would consider my behaviour as rational.
Quote:If a deity wanted to torture someone then it would indeed be rational behavior if it did so.
Would it be rational behaviour if I burnt a house down because I wanted too? Once again, what is 'rational' to you?
Dictionary: Rational
"In accordance with the principles of logic or reason; reasonable"
Quote:Finally, don't make the mistake of thinking love or compassion is dependent on rationality
Love and compassion are only chemical reactions.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence - Carl Sagan
Mankind's intelligence walks hand in hand with it's stupidity.
Being an atheist says nothing about your overall intelligence, it just means you don't believe in god. Atheists can be as bright as any scientist and as stupid as any creationist.
You never really know just how stupid someone is, until you've argued with them.
September 15, 2010 at 12:09 pm (This post was last modified: September 15, 2010 at 12:09 pm by Watson.)
You know, the thing that most amuses me about these topics is how the atheists always respond first. Such arrogance is utterly jaw-dropping.
(September 15, 2010 at 9:23 am)Ace Wrote: Can a theist here explain the reasoning behind endless torture for a finite victemless crime?
What are we talking about here by 'endless torture'? What is the torture, is it endless, and how does one earn it? Also, you make the mistake of calling disbelief 'victimless'. It is not victimless, because the person disbelieving is the victim; seperation from God is the torture, and that is Hell.
Quote:Who can give a rational reason for it?
I can try, but I doubt you'll really care or accept my reasoning.
Quote:Oh and why do people end up in hell for simply having certain thoughts or lack ther of?
It is not necessarily having certain thoughts that winds you up in Hell, it is choosing to believe in thsoe thoughts which does so. People end up in hell because they put themselves there. Convinced of their own thoughts or answers, they forget what they have learned and walk toward a path that is not constructive to their overall well-being, or the will of God.
Quote:Who is affected by anothers beliefs (or lack ther of)?
the person with the beleif, or lack thereof, is affected.
Quote:Oh and don't bother saying 'no one can understand god's reasons' bullshit.
Quote:What are we talking about here by 'endless torture'? What is the torture, is it endless, and how does one earn it? Also, you make the mistake of calling disbelief 'victimless'. It is not victimless, because the person disbelieving is the victim; seperation from God is the torture, and that is Hell.
Do keep in mind that theists don't all agree on what hell is.
Also what do you mean disbelief isn't victemless. I'm not harming myself. I'm just great. It is victemless. I was born with lack of belief and have always lacked belief and felt no ill effect. Also if hell is nothing more than being seperate from god then I'm fine with that. Since I've lived my whole life without belief in him. Hardly torture.
Quote:I can try, but I doubt you'll really care or accept my reasoning.
I can accept that you have beliefs and I can respect that. Just don't expect me to agree with your reasoning if I don't think it's very sound reasoning.
Quote:It is not necessarily having certain thoughts that winds you up in Hell, it is choosing to believe in thsoe thoughts which does so.
I didn't choose to lack belief. I never had belief. If I said I believed in god I would be lying to you and myself. I don't choose to lack belief, I'm just not convinced that such a thing like god exists.
Quote:Convinced of their own thoughts or answers
No, convinced of the evidence presented. If there is no evidence, there is no case. Simple.
Quote:the person with the beleif, or lack thereof, is affected
Affected how? I'm to be punished for being a victem to myself? Wheres the sense in that?
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence - Carl Sagan
Mankind's intelligence walks hand in hand with it's stupidity.
Being an atheist says nothing about your overall intelligence, it just means you don't believe in god. Atheists can be as bright as any scientist and as stupid as any creationist.
You never really know just how stupid someone is, until you've argued with them.
September 15, 2010 at 12:39 pm (This post was last modified: September 15, 2010 at 12:40 pm by tackattack.)
Sorry so late on the responce Ace I just saw this one.
(September 15, 2010 at 9:23 am)Ace Wrote:
I have asked in other threads about the reasoning of sending people to hell for all eternity for a finite victemless crime. Didn't quite get an answer.
Can a theist here explain the reasoning behind endless torture for a finite victemless crime?
Who can give a rational reason for it?
Oh and why do people end up in hell for simply having certain thoughts or lack ther of? Who is affected by anothers beliefs (or lack ther of)?
Oh and don't bother saying 'no one can understand god's reasons' bullshit.
I really want an answer to this one. Since I think it's impossible to give a rational explanation for it. Rules that make no sense are rules made without reason.
(September 15, 2010 at 9:28 am)Skipper Wrote:
I also want to know why hell was created by God. And also why he created the devil or hasn't destroyed him yet. Seeing as most Christians blame sin or sinful actions on the devil, why can't god (the all powerful being that he is) just get rid of the devil and therefore get rid of all sin and then we can all go to heaven and live forever with sky daddy.
To answer the OP
1-Can a theist here explain the reasoning behind endless torture for a finite victemless crime?
-I can not. I don't believe there is eternal torture for anyone, nor do I think it's biblical teaching.
2-Oh and why do people end up in hell for simply having certain thoughts or lack ther of?
-Punishment based on intent is also part of our secular society. The trick is it's not based solely on intent nor solely on action, just like our secular laws. When regarding an omnimax God though intent is just as provable as actual action, while in a court of law it's extremely subjective and difficult to determine's someone's exact motives
3-Who is affected by anothers beliefs (or lack ther of)?
-Only the believer and the object of belief.
4-I also want to know why hell was created by God.
-Matthew 25:41 teaches that hell or Ghenna (valley of hinnon) was created for the devil and his angels. This can either be taken literally or figuratively. If figurative it would indicate that it's simply a place to disssssard something like trash.
5-And also why he created the devil or hasn't destroyed him yet.
-God created the devil for a rason and continues to use him by allowing Satan to tempt and manipulate us. If we never knew the difference between good and evil, how would we know that God is good or anything for that matter. Allowing us the freedom to learn and adapt to our enviornemnt and influence helps us individually better our moral standings and better determine right from wrong and good from bad. If he wanted automotons, I'm sure he would have created them, but I'm glad he didn't.
"There ought to be a term that would designate those who actually follow the teachings of Jesus, since the word 'Christian' has been largely divorced from those teachings, and so polluted by fundamentalists that it has come to connote their polar opposite: intolerance, vindictive hatred, and bigotry." -- Philip Stater, Huffington Post
always working on cleaning my windows- me regarding Johari
(September 15, 2010 at 9:23 am)Ace Wrote: I have asked in other threads about the reasoning of sending people to hell for all eternity for a finite victemless crime. Didn't quite get an answer.
Are our sins really finite? Ultimately they are all sins against an infinite God. Perhaps this is why they deserve an infinite punishment.
Quote:Oh and don't bother saying 'no one can understand god's reasons' bullshit.
Why not? It happens to be true. It is possible that the answer I gave above is wrong and the real answer is something that is beyond human comprehension.
(September 15, 2010 at 9:28 am)Skipper Wrote: I also want to know why hell was created by God.
When Jesus spoke of Hell he used the word Gehenna. Gehenna was the name of a valley near Jerusalem where trash was taken and burned. Apparently its name came to be applied to Hell because Hell serves as a sort of moral garbage dump for creation where all the sin and evil are disposed of.
Quote:Seeing as most Christians blame sin or sinful actions on the devil, why can't god (the all powerful being that he is) just get rid of the devil and therefore get rid of all sin and then we can all go to heaven and live forever with sky daddy.
Not all sin is the result of the devil. We all have natures that make it easier for us to sin than to do what is right. Revelation 20 tells us that Christ will reign on earth for a thousand years and Satan will be confined to the bottomless pit for all this time. At the end of this time he will be released and a large multitude will follow him. The fact that he finds so many followers demonstrates the evil that exists in humans. They will be forced to hide this evil during Christ's reign but will express it openly when they have the chance.
His invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.
Romans 1:20 ESV
(September 15, 2010 at 12:39 pm)tackattack Wrote: 5-And also why he created the devil or hasn't destroyed him yet.
-God created the devil for a rason and continues to use him by allowing Satan to tempt and manipulate us. If we never knew the difference between good and evil, how would we know that God is good or anything for that matter. Allowing us the freedom to learn and adapt to our enviornemnt and influence helps us individually better our moral standings and better determine right from wrong and good from bad. If he wanted automotons, I'm sure he would have created them, but I'm glad he didn't.
He didn't want automotons yet those who submit to the temptation and sin that HE himself created and don't believe in what he says they should and live their lives a certain way, go to hell for eternity!?! Seems like he does want automotons to me, and Christians seem to fit that description perfectly.
There is no defence for Christianity here. (see Bradley v. Craig, from which I selectively quote below):
Proposition 1. God is omnipotent, omniscient, perfectly good, just, righteous, merciful, and loving.
Proposition 2. God will torture the majority of humans eternally in hell for the sin of unbelief, whether or not they have heard Jesus' name.
These would lead one to believe god does not exist. Apologists try to reconcile this with:
Proposition 3. God has actualized a world containing an optimal balance between saved and unsaved.
Proposition 4. There is no possible world inhabited by creatures with free will in which all persons freely receive Christ.
In other words we don't know gods master plan and to save the most people he can, most of us get 'hot needles in eyes etc'.
But this is easily dismissed by:
Proposition 5. There is a possible a world which is inhabited by creatures with free will, all of whom freely receive god
Apparently god has done this before in eden, post flood earth and heaven. So god could do it, but doesn't bother to
Furthermore. Proposition 3 is flawed because as an ominpotent being, the proeprties of god described below are inconsistent
P1. A perfectly good being would not torture anyone for any period whatever, however brief.
P2. A just being wouldn't punish someone eternally for the sins committed during a brief lifetime but would proportion the punishment to the offense.
P3. A righteous being would not punish someone eternally for unavoidable lack of belief.
P4. A merciful being would not be eternally unforgiving to those who have offended it.
P5. A loving being would not bring about and perpetuate the suffering of those that it loves.
"I still say a church steeple with a lightning rod on top shows a lack of confidence"...Doug McLeod.
September 15, 2010 at 1:29 pm (This post was last modified: September 15, 2010 at 1:46 pm by tackattack.)
@Skipper- Like any father wants their offspring to grow up, learn to be a good persona and live their own life. I don't want my son to be an automoton, but there are choices. I hope he learns to make right choices and is happy in his life. When he's young I don't respect his opinions as much because he doens't know better, but as he gets older and knows better I allow him to suffer the consequences of his actions. That sin and temptation that you're talking about,yes God did create, but you're blaming him for your choice. I'm all about pesonal accountability and when I see a big mac and a salad in front of me, I'm man enough to call myself a pudgie becuase I can't controll myself or make the right decisions and choose the Big Mac. I don't sue McDonalds because I'm fat. As a caveat.. apparently some people I think have tried this and that just shows the degredation of society and lack of Personal Accountability.
@ CaptainS-
There is no defence for Christianity here. (see Bradley v. Craig, from which I selectively quote below):
Proposition 1. God is omnipotent, omniscient, perfectly good, just, righteous, merciful, and loving.
Proposition 2. God will torture the majority of humans eternally in hell for the sin of unbelief, whether or not they have heard Jesus' name.
These would lead one to believe god does not exist. Apologists try to reconcile this with:
Proposition 3. God has actualized a world containing an optimal balance between saved and unsaved.
Proposition 4. There is no possible world inhabited by creatures with free will in which all persons freely receive Christ.
In other words we don't know gods master plan and to save the most people he can, most of us get 'hot needles in eyes etc'.
But this is easily dismissed by:
Proposition 5. There is a possible a world which is inhabited by creatures with free will, all of whom freely receive god
Apparently god has done this before in eden, post flood earth and heaven. So god could do it, but doesn't bother to
Furthermore. Proposition 3 is flawed because as an ominpotent being, the proeprties of god described below are inconsistent
P1. A perfectly good being would not torture anyone for any period whatever, however brief.
P2. A just being wouldn't punish someone eternally for the sins committed during a brief lifetime but would proportion the punishment to the offense.
P3. A righteous being would not punish someone eternally for unavoidable lack of belief.
P4. A merciful being would not be eternally unforgiving to those who have offended it.
P5. A loving being would not bring about and perpetuate the suffering of those that it loves.
Properties of God Propositions 1-5
PG1. Unless the ends justify the means or if there is a perfectly good reason for suffering
PG2. agreed completely
PG3. unless the lack of belief is avoidable in which case that would be denial or delusion and it would be right to punish people denying or delusional about reality that have the fascilities to overcome them
PG4. A merciful being would balance judgement and mercy to not prolong suffering
PG5. see PG1.
On Proposition 2 up top no where in the Bible does it say that your suffering in hell is eternal, that's a Platonic belief not a Biblical one. Proposition 3 up top is also not Biblical in nature.
"There ought to be a term that would designate those who actually follow the teachings of Jesus, since the word 'Christian' has been largely divorced from those teachings, and so polluted by fundamentalists that it has come to connote their polar opposite: intolerance, vindictive hatred, and bigotry." -- Philip Stater, Huffington Post
always working on cleaning my windows- me regarding Johari
September 15, 2010 at 2:21 pm (This post was last modified: September 15, 2010 at 2:59 pm by Skipper.)
(September 15, 2010 at 1:29 pm)tackattack Wrote: @Skipper- Like any father wants their offspring to grow up, learn to be a good persona and live their own life. I don't want my son to be an automoton, but there are choices. I hope he learns to make right choices and is happy in his life. When he's young I don't respect his opinions as much because he doens't know better, but as he gets older and knows better I allow him to suffer the consequences of his actions. That sin and temptation that you're talking about,yes God did create, but you're blaming him for your choice. I'm all about pesonal accountability and when I see a big mac and a salad in front of me, I'm man enough to call myself a pudgie becuase I can't controll myself or make the right decisions and choose the Big Mac. I don't sue McDonalds because I'm fat. As a caveat.. apparently some people I think have tried this and that just shows the degredation of society and lack of Personal Accountability.
But would you think it's ok to punish your son ETERNALLY for whatever mistakes he make during his life...especially if you are the one who purposefully put the opportunity to make those mistakes in front of him?
Surely a fair and just god, as we are told he is, would forgive whatever sins, regardless of belief, and not punish people ETERNALLY for the overall small sins, including just that of not blindly believing in him during their 70 odd years on earth.
Again, you say he doesn't want us to all be the same mindless beings, then sets out a fairly strict criteria of how we are to live our lives, and even what we are to think and believe, if we want to avoid eternal torture...it does look exactly like he wants us to all be the same, and be controlled. Yet I don't think a truly great and eternal being would be to fussed if people didn't live exactly like he wants them to, and believe in him as the highest power...I suggest those qualities of control and exploitation via threats of unjust punishment are more easily attributed to men, especially those who created and are at the top ends of the faith you follow.
Edit: As a side note... correct me if im wrong though, if god is all knowing, what point is there in us being on earth? He created us, he knows all that we think, all we have done and all that we will do, if it's already a foregone conclusion as far as gods concerned whether im going to hell or not due to the decisions he knows I will make...why bother putting me on the earth at all? Why not divide all the souls up into two camps and leave it at that. Seems like a waste of a week of his time creating everything if you ask me.
