It seems to be a competition of who can ignore the most reality. I remember as I was going through my deprogramming phase how I was intentionally facing what is usually termed "negative" (thereby realistic) aspects of life in order to know the truth about them. Of course, my wife and many others donned me a pessimist because I didn't primarily focus on the "good" in life while neglecting or slightly regarding the "bad."

I remember the result of my neglect for realism; coming very close to being attacked and defamed. It's of the utmost importance that I find the truth and desperately cling to it. Tangible results always dominate imaginary superstitions in the credibility and veracity found therein. The world can be unmerciful to the one who doesn't respect the reality of our mortality.

"Reward" seems a code for "natural byproduct" for those who thickly cover all of life in positivism. It's hard to avoid using some facets of naïveté in life as most people enjoy the rewards of good feelings. Otherwise, we may accidentally discover that our lives are more meaningless than we were hoping and we really are "just another mammal."

Yes, there you have it. Humans love to feel "special." Their concept of an afterlife may be childish but they willingly cling to it rather than face the idea that the world might go on without them.

Such hubris from a species whose long-term survivability rates well below cockroaches.

"I'm interested to see if any theist here has a sound and valid argument."

I'm not a "theist" ... but religion IS a massive part of our evolution. On one hand, we should be proud that we had the ability to create a God (it's one of the many things that seperates us from the humble bumble bee), on the other hand, we DO need to "get a life".

It's complicated.

Quote:but religion IS a massive part of our evolution

Culture. Not evolution.

Quote:but religion IS a massive part of our evolution

No, it is not.

Religions are a cultural constructs, invented to meet the needs of the people and societies who invent them. Religions do not evolve, they disintegrates,in the face of reason, evidence,changing needs and the fall of empires. They become quaint and irrelevant.

The Egyptian religion survived for over 3000 years.Christianity is less than 2000 years old and already in decline. I suspect it will disappear within the next two hundred years. I don't say that with malice or pleasure.I have no doubt the vacuum left by Christianity will be replaced by something just as bad, possibly worse..

(September 23, 2010 at 10:35 pm)padraic Wrote:

Quote:but religion IS a massive part of our evolution

No, it is not.

Religions are a cultural constructs, invented to meet the needs of the people and societies who invent them. Religions do not evolve, they disintegrates,in the face of reason, evidence,changing needs and the fall of empires. They become quaint and irrelevant.

The Egyptian religion survived for over 3000 years.Christianity is less than 2000 years old and already in decline. I suspect it will disappear within the next two hundred years. I don't say that with malice or pleasure.I have no doubt the vacuum left by Christianity will be replaced by something just as bad, possibly worse..

Please explain a world where humans didn't look up and worship a giant ball a fire (the sun).

Can you do that?

---

What do you think we would have done without religion as part of our human make up?

Got better at football?

Women dress their pets up like people all of the time, movies that show animals speaking are common, cartoons show the sun, moon, and stars dancing, singing, and talking, we have a blockbuster movie where one of the main characters is a superhero named "Storm," humans will look for an excuse to make everything they can personable; including certain glowing orbs in the sky.

One would think that the personification of animate and inanimate objects would be a sign of insanity. Yet we prove how agreeable we are as a "forward thinking nation" by "majority wins;" a cultural stigma if I've ever heard one.

"Dude you've GOT to get an iPhone, EVERYONE'S got one . . . really? Youre right! I gotta get one or I'll miss out on what everyone's talking about!" Agreeing that the death penalty is ok in some situations but not in others and accepted in some states but rejected in others is not a genetic trait.

I think it's time for me to pray to my car again.

(September 23, 2010 at 10:35 pm)padraic Wrote: Religions do not evolve

You're scope is somewhat limited. I believe Richard Dawkins has addressed this issue numerous times with the subject of memes and the extended phenotype. Anything that replicates can evolve, including ideas. I would even go as far to say that the evolution of ideas provides the most compelling evidence yet that Charles Darwin's core concept of evolution is true. We have reams of written text that are analogous to the GATC of the DNA Sequence. Subtle changes to a sentence can have fundamental repercussions. Jesus once walked by the water. Then he walked on the water and set in motion 2000 years of what we now call history.

To suppose that ideas and opinions (as we've discussed before) do not have a real effect on the world is an exercise in switching one's brain off and shutting out the truth. Evolution is not simply a case of growing a third arm, or how eyeballs came into existence.

It may be true that religions eventually become quaint and irrelevant, but that proves bugger all. Red Squirrels have become quaint and irrelevant because Grey squirrels have out-evolved them. We humans are whipper-snappers of a species compared to many other lifeforms on the planet. Who's to say we won't become quaint and irrelevant in a few years time?

Now, about my "God is a computer" hypothesis.....?

(September 23, 2010 at 11:54 pm)jason56 Wrote:

(September 23, 2010 at 10:35 pm)padraic Wrote:

Quote:but religion IS a massive part of our evolution

No, it is not.

Religions are a cultural constructs, invented to meet the needs of the people and societies who invent them. Religions do not evolve, they disintegrates,in the face of reason, evidence,changing needs and the fall of empires. They become quaint and irrelevant.

The Egyptian religion survived for over 3000 years.Christianity is less than 2000 years old and already in decline. I suspect it will disappear within the next two hundred years. I don't say that with malice or pleasure.I have no doubt the vacuum left by Christianity will be replaced by something just as bad, possibly worse..

Please explain a world where humans didn't look up and worship a giant ball a fire (the sun).

Can you do that?

---

What do you think we would have done without religion as part of our human make up?

Got better at football?

It's not part of our evolution though. It's a cultural thing. Nothing more. In the same way that morris dancing isn't part of evolution. It's purely cultural. Nothing to do with us adapting to survive.

I'll admit to being perpetually fascinated by non-scientists who think they can freely adapt the Theory of evolution to suit whatever obsession they have.

Evolutionary change in biology occurs at the genetic level. When you start talking about ideas "evolving" you have to make sure that you separate the idea from the scientific definition of "Evolution."