frpm a post Daylight Atheism

I liked all of these, but especially numbers 2, 6 and 10


1. Why is God called loving or merciful when, in the Old Testament's stories of the Israelite conquest, he specifically orders his chosen people to massacre their enemies, showing no mercy to men, women, even children and animals?

2. Does it make sense to claim, as the Bible does, that wrongdoing can be forgiven by magically transferring the blame from a guilty person to an innocent one, then punishing the innocent person?

3. Why does the Bible routinely depict God as manifesting himself in dramatic, unmistakable ways and performing obvious miracles even before the eyes of nonbelievers, when no such thing happens in the world today?

4. Why do vast numbers of Christians still believe in the imminent end of the world when the New Testament states clearly that the apocalypse was supposed to happen 2,000 years ago, during the lifetime of Jesus' contemporaries?

5. Why do Christians believe in the soul when neurology has found clear evidence that the sense of identity and personality can be altered by physical changes to the brain?

6. If it was always God's plan to provide salvation through Jesus, why didn't he send Jesus from the very beginning, instead of confusing and misleading generations of people by setting up a religion called Judaism which he knew in advance would prove to be inadequate?

7. Since the Bible states that God does not desire that anyone perish, but also states that the majority of humankind is going to hell, doesn't this show that God's plan of salvation is a failure even by his own standard? If this outcome is a success, what would count as a failure?

8. Why didn't God create human beings such that they freely desire to do good, thus removing the need to create a Hell at all? (If you believe this is impossible, isn't this the state that will exist in Heaven?)

9. Is it fair or rational for God to hide himself so that he can only be known by faith, then insist that every single human being find him by picking the right one out of thousands of conflicting and incompatible religions?

10. If you had the power to help all people who are suffering or in need, at no cost or effort to yourself, would you do it? If so, why hasn't God done this already?

Do you seriously believe that Pastors and Christians have never consider such questions before?

(September 6, 2008 at 10:13 pm)Pete Wrote: Do you seriously believe that Pastors and Christians have never consider such questions before?

I have no doubt the points raised by StewartP can be expertly addressed by xtian apologetics and saints. People who spend their time desperately shoring up all the holes in the xtian death cult manual.

It's very interesting to read what the people at CARM (xtian apologetics) say about 'bible issues'.

http://www.carm.org/bible_difficulties.htm

A good starting point would be the two versions of creation in Genesis.

http://www.carm.org/diff/Gen_1.htm

The explanation given at the above link is of course bullshit, Genesis 2 had a different author to Genesis 1. Possibly Genesis 2 was written to make it appear that women were less than men, their being created from Adam's rib rather than from the dust at the same time as Adam in Genesis 1.

There are examples of 'doublets' (two versions of the same story) throughout the bible, moses striking a rock to produce water, the ten commandments, animals going onto the ark, etc.

IMHO the content of bible is complete and utter nonsense, written by men as a means of control by fear, peer pressure and superstition. In this respect it is very cleverly written.

(September 6, 2008 at 10:13 pm)Pete Wrote: Do you seriously believe that Pastors and Christians have never consider such questions before?

I'm sure they have. I'd just like to hear what their answers would be, beyond "God's ways are beyond our understanding"

Remember that the ultimate excuse for all of the bullshit in the bible is found within the bible itself.

Isaiah 55:8-11
8For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.

9For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

10For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater:

11So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

In other words us mere mortals are too stupid to understand the ways of the Lord.

I love this weak explanation for why God is seen a s plural in the bible.

First, the trinity didn't exist then, so why would God consider himself the trinity then if at that time the son wasn't born and the Holy Spirit didn't exist?

Because he's omnipotent and new they would?

No! Because the creation myths were adapted from polytheistic myths with some errors! Just like the original Noah's ark was Polytheistic with all gods wanting to destroy humanity and one wanting to save. Because honestly, how schizophrenic is it to want to destroy and save humanity at the same time?

(September 7, 2008 at 4:09 am)StewartP Wrote: I'm sure they have. I'd just like to hear what their answers would be, beyond "God's ways are beyond our understanding"

If you're really serious then I recommend finding a Christian discussion forum which has an apologetics section and post this question there. I doubt you'll find an answer here because this forum is about atheism and you're not going to find many theists here who'd respond to that kind of question. Then again the forum is young.

I'm a theist but am choosing not to get into religeous debates. I myself have other reasons for being here.

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(September 7, 2008 at 4:49 pm)Eilonnwy Wrote: Because honestly, how schizophrenic is it to want to destroy and save humanity at the same time?

I assume that "Out with the bad and in with the good" is not a foreign concept to you. Everyone takes out the trash but does not throw away what is still good.

There's some tough questions in there, definitely. I know a few are easily countered by the typical answers about God working in mysterious ways and the whole free will business. I've never bought into the whole explanation that 'we have free will but God knows our choices'. Seems like a cop-out.

I'm a sucker for Bible inconsistencies, so #4 is one I'll have to remember. I've never come across this one before.

(September 7, 2008 at 5:37 pm)Pete Wrote:

(September 7, 2008 at 4:49 pm)Eilonnwy Wrote: Because honestly, how schizophrenic is it to want to destroy and save humanity at the same time?

I assume that "Out with the bad and in with the good" is not a foreign concept to you. Everyone takes out the trash but does not throw away what is still good.

I know you're not one of them, but many people still believe in Noah's ark.

And for those that don't but still believe in the Bible, well that's just as crazy to me. I admit that amidst all the racism, prejudice, violence, etc... there maybe some good messages hidden in those Bible texts. But what makes you decide those messages are the right one? What makes you realize this can't be true, it's just symbolic, a metaphor, doesn't apply to our times. Not religion. It's the morality that has evolved in current day society that is completely secular but people claim comes from religion. Picking a choosing what's good in the Bible, and claiming it's from God, is just as silly to me as believing Noah's ark happened.

Quote:1. Why is God called loving or merciful when, in the Old Testament's stories of the Israelite conquest, he specifically orders his chosen people to massacre their enemies, showing no mercy to men, women, even children and animals?

The participants
============

God
===
Wants the world to mirror heaven. No injustice, no violence.

The People
========
Sacrificed their children to fire, served harsh gods

The Israelites
==========
Had been taken up by God to create a nation that followed Gods ways

Gods Plan
=======
He is not willing that any should perish but all come to eternal salvation

Bits of stuff we need to know
======================
God speaks to people individualy, and personally, even at the time of death. God could eternally save any one of the people who sacrificed their children to fire. Depending apon thier choices at that stage. Putting them to death naturally was not the same as putting them to death spiritually.

What God was up to
===============
God was making a statment for the world to see: serve harsh Gods, that require child sacrifices and I will not tollerate it. He really had no other option. He allowed defectors. i.e. people could defect and become Israelites, such as Rahab. The bible says fear had fallen upon all the lands after they had heared of the miracles performed against egypt. The reason I say he had no choice is, if he left women and children alive they would be very ticked off at Israel and would have made a humanitarian disaster. Wiping every thing out ment the people and animals would not be a problem for them. Good could replace evil. No more child sacrifices. Because God can talk to people even as they are dying it gave each one a chance to be eternally saved. Which is the main thing for God. Because he desired that none of the people who were sacrificing their children perish eternally, he would have spoken to them shortly before or during death to ask them to forgive those who had wronged them. As the bible says forgive us our sins, as we forgive those who have sinned against us.