The bible claims that:

Jesus raised a man from the dead, but he died again.

Jesus calmed a sea storm, but they continue to come back.

Jesus created water to wine, but the wine was quickly turned back to water.

Jesus fed 5000 with fish and bread, but they quickly became hungry again and the fish and bread ran out eventually. Furthermore, raw fish and bread is a pitiful meal that wouldn't be complete enough for even a half star restaurant. 

Jesus founded a church that would split and devolve into pedophile dens.

Jesus healed a leaper that died.

Jesus healed a blind man's eyes that presumable failed as the man aged in the same way ours does, then of course his eyes died too.

Jesus' presence and teachings never brought peace to any historical city.

Evidently jesus' "Ju JU, WOO WOO" magic was pretty third rate, not one bit of his magic lasted or even made a tiny piece of physical evidence.

Jesus had to mix dirt with spittle for the eye miracle thing. Never quite figured that out. What power could He have put in the mud and spittle that was not already coursing through his hands.

Oh, it's a metaphor or parable.

D'oh!!

(June 20, 2015 at 11:03 pm)Brakeman Wrote: The bible claims that:

Jesus raised a man from the dead, but he died again.

Jesus calmed a sea storm, but they continue to come back.

Jesus created water to wine, but the wine was quickly turned back to water.

Jesus fed 5000 with fish and bread, but they quickly became hungry again and the fish and bread ran out eventually. Furthermore, raw fish and bread is a pitiful meal that wouldn't be complete enough for even a half star restaurant. 

Jesus founded a church that would split and devolve into pedophile dens.

Jesus healed a leaper that died.

Jesus healed a blind man's eyes that presumable failed as the man aged in the same way ours does, then of course his eyes died too.

Jesus' presence and teachings never brought peace to any historical city.

Evidently jesus' "Ju JU, WOO WOO" magic was pretty third rate, not one bit of his magic lasted or even made a tiny piece of physical evidence.

Those things were "signs"...they weren't intended to be permanent "fixes".

The Catechism explains this clearly [my emphasis added]:

548 The signs worked by Jesus attest that the Father has sent him. They invite belief in him.269 To those who turn to him in faith, he grants what they ask.270 So miracles strengthen faith in the One who does his Father's works; they bear witness that he is the Son of God.271 But his miracles can also be occasions for "offense";272 they are not intended to satisfy people's curiosity or desire for magic. Despite his evident miracles some people reject Jesus; he is even accused of acting by the power of demons.273

549 By freeing some individuals from the earthly evils of hunger, injustice, illness and death,274 Jesus performed messianic signs. Nevertheless he did not come to abolish all evils here below,275 but to free men from the gravest slavery, sin, which thwarts them in their vocation as God's sons and causes all forms of human bondage.276

550 The coming of God's kingdom means the defeat of Satan's: "If it is by the Spirit of God that I cast out demons, then the kingdom of God has come upon you."277 Jesus' exorcisms free some individuals from the domination of demons. They anticipate Jesus' great victory over "the ruler of this world".278 The kingdom of God will be definitively established through Christ's cross: "God reigned from the wood."279

Quote:Jesus had to mix dirt with spittle for the eye miracle thing.

An idea stolen by the thieving xtians from Suetonius' Life of Vespasian.

Quote:A man of the people who was blind, and another who was lame, came to him together as he sat on the tribunal, begging for the help for their disorders which Serapis had promised in a dream; for the god declared that Vespasian would restore the eyes, if he would spit upon them

Suetonius Vespasian 7, 2

Nothing new under the sun...especially when xtians are involved.

How the miracles could have been bettered:

-Jesus raised a man from the dead, but he died again.

It is understandable that the man should eventually die, but Jesus could have raised him with some skill he didn't previously possess.  Tap dancing, maybe.

-Jesus calmed a sea storm, but they continue to come back.

Storms are a needful part of our planetary environment, but Jesus could have arranged for them to rain something like marshmallows.

-Jesus created water to wine, but the wine was quickly turned back to water.

Water to wine to water...to whiskey.

-Jesus fed 5000 with fish and bread, but they quickly became hungry again and the fish and bread ran out eventually. Furthermore, raw fish and bread is a pitiful meal that wouldn't be complete enough for even a half star restaurant. 

Cod and chips.

-Jesus founded a church that would split and devolve into pedophile dens.

Might have helped had he included a statement along the lines of, 'Fuck a child, and I'll come back and kill you myself.'

-Jesus healed a leper that died.

If could heal a leper, he could have cured leprosy.

-Jesus healed a blind man's eyes that presumable failed as the man aged in the same way ours does, then of course his eyes died too.

He could have given the man x-ray vision.

-Jesus' presence and teachings never brought peace to any historical city.

Ok, this one's a bit unfair. 'I come not to bring peace, but a sword.'
 

Boru

As for Jesus and the water/wine thing;

whatever it was, it all wound up as piss in the end.

To be honest, they mostly sound about as impressive (or even less so) than the kind of tricks we see magicians do all the time.

I've actually seen Dynamo walk on water. There's a shortage of people lining up to worship him though. Not impressive anymore, apparently.

(June 21, 2015 at 2:32 am)Minimalist Wrote:

Quote:Jesus had to mix dirt with spittle for the eye miracle thing.

An idea stolen by the thieving xtians from Suetonius' Life of Vespasian.

Quote:A man of the people who was blind, and another who was lame, came to him together as he sat on the tribunal, begging for the help for their disorders which Serapis had promised in a dream; for the god declared that Vespasian would restore the eyes, if he would spit upon them

Suetonius Vespasian 7, 2

Nothing new under the sun...especially when xtians are involved.

Suetonius Life of Vespasian (from the 12 Caesars) was written in AD 121, by which time the Gospels were finished (the synoptics a long time previously).


There are different sight-miracle-with-spit incidents. Bethsaida (Mark 8:22-26) uses direct to eye spit only and is more like the Vespasian incident. Siloam (John 9) uses spit and mud.

I would also mention the deaf-mute healing with spit (Mark 7:31-37).


There's some fascinating questions all this raises. I'll work with the Bethsaida incident.

Jesus doesn't get the healing first time, and has to have a second go. He also uses saliva, and has to ask how things are going. He comes across rather like a primitive doctor/magician.

Also, there is no continuity with any practice within the Early Church or any known stream of christology. The Early Church did it differently, and this isn't a very “God as man” story.

Finally, there are none of the usual miracle garnishes- no holy choruses of glorious shock, no praising of God, no mention of faith...


Given the criteria of clear discontinuity, and of heavy embarrassment, and the particular oddities; most probably historically, some kind of incident occurred around Bethsaida which the witnesses believed was some kind of healing.


(Please note the phrasing of the last sentence carefully!)


So, it wasn't stolen.

(June 21, 2015 at 1:12 am)Randy Carson Wrote:

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(June 20, 2015 at 11:03 pm)Brakeman Wrote: The bible claims that:

Jesus raised a man from the dead, but he died again.

Jesus calmed a sea storm, but they continue to come back.

Jesus created water to wine, but the wine was quickly turned back to water.

Jesus fed 5000 with fish and bread, but they quickly became hungry again and the fish and bread ran out eventually. Furthermore, raw fish and bread is a pitiful meal that wouldn't be complete enough for even a half star restaurant. 

Jesus founded a church that would split and devolve into pedophile dens.

Jesus healed a leaper that died.

Jesus healed a blind man's eyes that presumable failed as the man aged in the same way ours does, then of course his eyes died too.

Jesus' presence and teachings never brought peace to any historical city.

Evidently jesus' "Ju JU, WOO WOO" magic was pretty third rate, not one bit of his magic lasted or even made a tiny piece of physical evidence.

---

Quote:Those things were "signs"...they weren't intended to be permanent "fixes".

The Catechism explains this clearly [my emphasis added]:

548 The signs worked by Jesus attest that the Father has sent him. They invite belief in him.269 To those who turn to him in faith, he grants what they ask.270 So miracles strengthen faith in the One who does his Father's works; they bear witness that he is the Son of God.271 But his miracles can also be occasions for "offense";272 they are not intended to satisfy people's curiosity or desire for magic. Despite his evident miracles some people reject Jesus; he is even accused of acting by the power of demons.273

549 By freeing some individuals from the earthly evils of hunger, injustice, illness and death,274 Jesus performed messianic signs. Nevertheless he did not come to abolish all evils here below,275 but to free men from the gravest slavery, sin, which thwarts them in their vocation as God's sons and causes all forms of human bondage.276

550 The coming of God's kingdom means the defeat of Satan's: "If it is by the Spirit of God that I cast out demons, then the kingdom of God has come upon you."277 Jesus' exorcisms free some individuals from the domination of demons. They anticipate Jesus' great victory over "the ruler of this world".278 The kingdom of God will be definitively established through Christ's cross: "God reigned from the wood."279

Since none of us ever saw those "signs" that Jesus supposedly did there's no reason to believe that he did them.